Roughness and noise at low throttle openings

[duckie]

Big twins and carbs…….I street rode and raced Ducati 95 900ss way back.

The CP3 engine reminds me of the 900 motor. 
 

The street one had a 944 kit in it with high compression pistons and no flywheel……and CV carbs. Man that thing was way too easy to stall. 
 

I stalled in once leaving the local hangout, tip over and rolled off it….in front of god and everyone.

I order flatslides the next day. 

[bwringer]

On 6/8/2021 at 1:10 PM, bwringer said:

Along with the normal cacophony emitted by the CP3 engine, which I'm happy to ignore, my 2015 FL-09 is making a noise and producing a "feel" that I don't like.

At 30-40 mph, with the throttle just barely cracked open, I can feel an extra vibration, and there's a chattery sort of noise. Throttle off and coasting, no noise. Throttle open and accelerating, no noise. Usual RPM is about 3,000 - 3,500.

The clutch works normally and doesn't slip. It's a little more difficult to get a perfectly smooth takeoff than on other bikes, but I dunno if that's normal or what.

It's very hard to describe and thus hard to Google.

I've found a few references that seem similar, and about something involving clutch springs here and there.

This thread from those other guys discusses replacing some rubber dampers in the clutch basket:

Yamaha FZ/MT 09 clutch buzz/noise/vibrations. How I repair it. | Yamaha FZ-09 Forum

---

...

There are also some odd references here and there about replacing the clutch basket. With what? Aftermarket? OEM? Later model OEM?

Thanks!

 

My FJ-09 is officially DE-GRONKED!

Just reporting back in here... I can happily report that this problem is officially SOLVED.

I hereby dub it the "GRONK", since that's the noise and vibration it makes. More like GROOOOO---OOOO--NNNN--KKKKK", but I'll just call it GRONK.

The issue was indeed worn dampers inside the clutch basket. I chose to replace the clutch basket with a new one from Yamaha. With a new nut and gasket, I'm just under $300 poorer. The clutch basket looks identical, but it is an updated part number, hopefully with better rubber bits inside.

The "GRONNNNNKKKKKK" noise and rough feel at those off and on 2% - 5% throttle situations wasn't hurting anything, but it was annoying and generally harshing my two-wheeled mellow. It might have gotten worse since I bought the bike, but it's hard to say for sure; it has been there since I bought it earlier this year.

One friend has ridden the bike, and he noticed the issue immediately.

Upon examination, the outer gear bit of the old clutch basket can rotate at least 1/8" (2 or 3mm) relative to the hub. There's a fair bit of friction from the large petaled disc spring on the back, but it's definitely there and it's definitely Not Right. The new one does not move like this, at least not under the force a puny mortal can apply.

I also installed a slipper clutch kit several weeks ago. I'm very happy with this update, although it did nothing for the GRONK. And a couple of days ago, I learned about and adjusted the APS with good effect.

Overall, I'm much happier with the bike, and wish I had been able to scare up a clutch basket sooner; I tried ordering one twice before only to learn it's on backorder. Third time, the part showed up in about a week.

Shout out to my local Yam-n-more dealer's online parts service, https://www.onlinecycleparts.com/  for great pricing and service. These guys actually -- you're never gonna believe this -- they actually CALL me when my order gets in, or if there's an issue. No, really. They ship nationwide, but since they're local to me, I just choose local pickup and I get to go slobber on some new bikes and stuff. Partshark.com is another great resource, and they're also local to Indy -- they figured out the slipper kit parts, so that's where I got that from.

I know others have drilled out the rivets and replaced the rubber dampers inside (apparently Yamaha dirtbikes use the same damper shape, and these can be found aftermarket). I'm capable of this work, and I would do this if I had no other option, but I am not at all comfortable replacing rivets with threaded fasteners. If this were the only route, then I would have tried to source proper metric rivets.

The basket was $240, the dampers are around $60, so for a difference of $180 I was happy to use a factory part and skip the worry and a few hours of extra work.

All in all, I'm very pleased with my FJ-09's much improved pleasantness and ridability, and I wish I had learned about and figured out all this sooner. I mean, spending over $500 on the clutch kinda sucked, but the slipper kit was admittedly entirely optional.

 

 

[skipperT]

Great to hear, @bwringer. I replaced mine back when the bike was a year old to try and quiet down the “whine” which was always quite loud at start-up and then would become reduced as the idle speed came down. Glad it fixed your “gronk” issue, I’ve often wondered why Yamaha didn’t use a more conventional primary drive gear design with springs on the back of the basket. Mystery. 

What was that updated p/n that you used?

-skip

[peteinpa]

Hope the new basket holds up with time and miles. 

If mine starts the GRONK I'll know what to do.

[bwringer]

The part is listed as:
Primary Driven Gear Comp
Original Part Number: 1RC-16150-00-00
New Part Number :B7N-16150-00-00

https://www.onlinecycleparts.com/oemparts/a/yam/546a26ccf87002164cb2801f/clutch

It appears to be a new part that's original in the 2021 MT09 and Tracer, and supercedes the old part number for all earlier 2014-2020 iterations of this engine:

https://www.onlinecycleparts.com/oemparts/partsearch/yamaha?partsearch=b7n-16150-00-00

So this could be a relatively new fix; I'm certainly hoping this will prove to be a permanent fix, but I won't know for at least a few more years.

 

Most bikes use springs for these dampers, but springs also commonly get weak and become problematic as well.

 

Anyway, from what little I can tell, the rubber dampers may be more common on dirtbikes. So perhaps they weren't up to the task of the higher horsepower engine?

 

 

As far as the other noises... this is just a really damn mechanically noisy engine (in later models, they added noise damping on the clutch cover), but things like gear whine don't bother me in the slightest. That's just the way it is, and I'm fine with the rest of the cacophony this groovy little engine cranks out. But the GRONK really bothered me because I could also feel it; something was NOT right.

 

I don't think it did any harm, and I didn't fear it would. But I wanted it gone.

 

Mission accomplished... just in time for winter. Oh well. There's still a lot of riding to be done here and there before the snow flies.

Edited October 26, 2021 by bwringer

[betoney]

Mine is in the shop for the same part replacement, for the 2nd time. First time was around 30k miles and this time at 66k, both times it was covered under the extended warranty.  

[peteinpa]

2 hours ago, betoney said:

Mine is in the shop for the same part replacement, for the 2nd time. First time was around 30k miles and this time at 66k, both times it was covered under the extended warranty.  

So it's not permanent.☹😭

[bwringer]

2 hours ago, peteinpa said:

So it's not permanent.☹😭

... unless the new-for-2021 part number has some sort of upgrade inside to take care of the problem.

I mean, they don't change part numbers for funsies, and the part is visually identical. One of the reasons I decided to install the new basket was because I'm hoping this has been improved. If the part number were the same, I might have leaned a little further to the side of trying to replace the cushions inside.

Gotta be some nut out there with a 2021 Tracer approaching 30,000 miles or so...

Edited October 26, 2021 by bwringer

[fr8dog]

On 10/25/2021 at 4:18 PM, betoney said:

Mine is in the shop for the same part replacement, for the 2nd time. First time was around 30k miles and this time at 66k, both times it was covered under the extended warranty.  

Is this for the noise that goes away when you pull the clutch in?

[betoney]

39 minutes ago, fr8dog said:

Is this for the noise that goes away when you pull the clutch in?

Mostly for the vibration that develops- but when the basket is replaced most of the clutch noise goes away as well.

[bwringer]

10 hours ago, fr8dog said:

Is this for the noise that goes away when you pull the clutch in?

No, it is definitely not.

It is a noise and vibration that happens while in motion, at very low throttle settings. The parts of the clutch basket can move too much relative to one another because of worn-out rubber dampers inside, and at very low throttle settings (like about 30-35mph in third gear) there's not enough load to force the parts all the way to one side or the other. I called it the GRONK.

The noise and vibration follow engine speed, not road speed, and can happen in any gear. It's more perceptible at lower speeds because there's less wind noise.

One of the challenges of diagnosing and fixing the GRONK has been the difficulty of describing the problem accurately. Coupled with the relative rarity of motorcycles using this engine, all we have are inadequate words. Capturing video/audio is extremely difficult since you have to be in motion.

Bear in mind that I live in Indiana, close to the Milwaukee reality distortion field: I've only ever seen four or five bikes with this engine since buying mine, and I've never heard another one run, or ridden one, or even sat on one.

Yes, I bought mine sight unseen based on specs and research comparing it with other bikes I was familiar with, and general long experience with interpreting internet bozo-speak into reality. The bike was exactly what I expected and wanted, better in many ways.

 

 

Some clutch noise when running in neutral with the clutch out is perfectly, completely normal and expected in any motorcycle with a wet clutch. You have several components inside the transmission that are essentially coasting with no load, some propelled by the drag of the oil. Running clearances are needed in order for the clutch to operate correctly. So yeah, they make some noise as things rattle around and it's absolutely nothing to worry about. 

There are many bikes (like some Suzuki V-Strom DL1000s) that have some other noise that worries owners. On the V-Strom, this is called "idle hammer", and it was a clear engine speed knocking noise, probably deriving from side play in the crankshaft. It's proven to be perfectly harmless, but it's something new owners complain about quite a bit. Former owners of dry plate clutch BMWs really tend to panic over normal neutral clutch-out noises, or the normal drag from oil that makes the rear wheel slowly go around while running on the centerstand in neutral.

I think another factor is that light, compact, powerful engines like the CP3 transmit more mechanical noise. There's less metal in the way, basically, (the case walls are much thinner than older design engines, for example) and everything is very tightly packaged so there's less oil or coolant in the way too. Later models even have a noise damper on the clutch cover, perhaps due to noise regs or maybe owner complaints.

How much clutch-out noise is normal, or whether some examples really do have a worrisome amount of clutch-out noise, is really hard to say and very difficult to communicate accurately without direct, in-person comparison. Even though this is a relatively popular engine that's been in production for several different bikes for a relatively long time, these things are still quite rare, at least in the US.

 

Anyway, as far as I can tell, the new clutch basket did not really affect the clutch-out noise on my bike.

It's suddenly getting colder here, so on my first very chilly test ride I thought maybe it did, but as the oil got up to normal temp the engine noises returned to the normal CP3 cacophony. None of these noises concern me. The GRONK is gone. 

FWIW, I do have a manual cam chain tensioner. My original CCT had not failed when I bought the bike and did its first valve check at around 23,000 miles, but I replaced this anyway. There are no unusual noises from the cam chain department.

Edited October 27, 2021 by bwringer

[Suzukiguy]

bwringer,

If you had been in Farmington, or I had attended Salem, you could have ridden another one! Oh well, there is always Brown County next year! Something to look forward to over the miserable cold and snowy season.

[bwringer]

8 minutes ago, Suzukiguy said:

bwringer,

If you had been in Farmington, or I had attended Salem, you could have ridden another one! Oh well, there is always Brown County next year! Something to look forward to over the miserable cold and snowy season.

Welll, howdy there, stranger! Fancy meetin' you here...

I wondered if you would pop up over here eventually. I find there's less to remember (but it's maybe a little more boring) to just use the same username everywhere.

Honestly, I would have been a little ashamed to let you ride mine until I got the GRONK sorted out. But it is very VERY damn nice now. I wish I had been able to get that clutch basket earlier in the year, but, well, you know. Guess I was lucky to get one at all.

Hope to see you and more of the gang as well in the spring.

[fr8dog]

23 hours ago, betoney said:

Mostly for the vibration that develops- but when the basket is replaced most of the clutch noise goes away as well.

No vibration. I'm good. Never worried about the noise. Thanks for the reply!!

[fr8dog]

14 hours ago, bwringer said:

No, it is definitely not.

It is a noise and vibration that happens while in motion, at very low throttle settings. The parts of the clutch basket can move too much relative to one another because of worn-out rubber dampers inside, and at very low throttle settings (like about 30-35mph in third gear) there's not enough load to force the parts all the way to one side or the other. I called it the GRONK.

The noise and vibration follow engine speed, not road speed, and can happen in any gear. It's more perceptible at lower speeds because there's less wind noise.

One of the challenges of diagnosing and fixing the GRONK has been the difficulty of describing the problem accurately. Coupled with the relative rarity of motorcycles using this engine, all we have are inadequate words. Capturing video/audio is extremely difficult since you have to be in motion.

Bear in mind that I live in Indiana, close to the Milwaukee reality distortion field: I've only ever seen four or five bikes with this engine since buying mine, and I've never heard another one run, or ridden one, or even sat on one.

Yes, I bought mine sight unseen based on specs and research comparing it with other bikes I was familiar with, and general long experience with interpreting internet bozo-speak into reality. The bike was exactly what I expected and wanted, better in many ways.

 

 

Some clutch noise when running in neutral with the clutch out is perfectly, completely normal and expected in any motorcycle with a wet clutch. You have several components inside the transmission that are essentially coasting with no load, some propelled by the drag of the oil. Running clearances are needed in order for the clutch to operate correctly. So yeah, they make some noise as things rattle around and it's absolutely nothing to worry about. 

There are many bikes (like some Suzuki V-Strom DL1000s) that have some other noise that worries owners. On the V-Strom, this is called "idle hammer", and it was a clear engine speed knocking noise, probably deriving from side play in the crankshaft. It's proven to be perfectly harmless, but it's something new owners complain about quite a bit. Former owners of dry plate clutch BMWs really tend to panic over normal neutral clutch-out noises, or the normal drag from oil that makes the rear wheel slowly go around while running on the centerstand in neutral.

I think another factor is that light, compact, powerful engines like the CP3 transmit more mechanical noise. There's less metal in the way, basically, (the case walls are much thinner than older design engines, for example) and everything is very tightly packaged so there's less oil or coolant in the way too. Later models even have a noise damper on the clutch cover, perhaps due to noise regs or maybe owner complaints.

How much clutch-out noise is normal, or whether some examples really do have a worrisome amount of clutch-out noise, is really hard to say and very difficult to communicate accurately without direct, in-person comparison. Even though this is a relatively popular engine that's been in production for several different bikes for a relatively long time, these things are still quite rare, at least in the US.

 

Anyway, as far as I can tell, the new clutch basket did not really affect the clutch-out noise on my bike.

It's suddenly getting colder here, so on my first very chilly test ride I thought maybe it did, but as the oil got up to normal temp the engine noises returned to the normal CP3 cacophony. None of these noises concern me. The GRONK is gone. 

FWIW, I do have a manual cam chain tensioner. My original CCT had not failed when I bought the bike and did its first valve check at around 23,000 miles, but I replaced this anyway. There are no unusual noises from the cam chain department.

Thank you for the very robust reply (insert smiley face). I'm good. No vibration here.