Hunting / surging and C0 settings

[papac2000]

I was able to enter diag mode just now. But...
Ours is different. There were two headings once in diag. DIAG on one line and DATA on the next line. There were 50 or 60 pages each with a Diag number and varying data below....sometimes a number and sometimes "ON" or "OFF".
Very friggin interesting. Would there be any reference to this in the service manual?
Canadian bike FWIW

[jimf]

I was able to enter diag mode just now. But... Ours is different. There were two headings once in diag. DIAG on one line and DATA on the next line. There were 50 or 60 pages each with a Diag number and varying data below....sometimes a number and sometimes "ON" or "OFF".
Very friggin interesting. Would there be any reference to this in the service manual?

You made me go look.  I'm pretty sure the table starting on page 9-6, "Self-Diagnostic Function and Diagnostic Code Table" describes that information.  For instance: 
01 - Throttle position sensor.  Fully closed position 11-21.  Fully open position 96-106.
03 - Air intake pressure 1
04 - Air intake pressure 2
05 - Air temperature
06 - Coolant temperature
07 - Rear wheel vehicle speed pulses
08 - Lean angle sensor.  Upright 0.4-1.4 volts.  Overturned 3.7-4.4 volts.
09 - Fuel system voltage.
 
etc.  (Sorry, not going to type in several pages of stuff.)
 
There are also active functions described in "Diagnostic code: Actuator operation table" on 9-9, e.g.:
 
30 - Cylinder #1 ignition coil.  Actuates coil five times at one-second intervals.
31 - Cylinder #2 ignition coil.
32 - Cylinder #3 ignition coil.
[...]
51 - Rotate fan.
52 - Flash headlight five times.
 
I don't see anything about changing CO levels in there.  In fact, it says that you need the Yamaha diagnostic tool to do that.  Oh well!

[papac2000]

I see. Makes sense. A few headings had ON or OFF in their data section, not a number. Any idea on those?

[skipperT]

I see. Makes sense. A few headings had ON or OFF in their data section, not a number. Any idea on those?

 
 
Yes. For instance, side stand position, cooling fan, clutch switch, etc off the top of my head.
 
The charts in the service manual are very specific and are
where that info is found.
 
-skip

[skipperT]

Johan- emissions is the big one. The second reason is probably that the manufacturer doesn't know where a unit will be operated. So they make a decision to set it up for sea level or a generalized "most common" condition. For example, I live at 5k feet. Machines run rich up here and need to be tweaked. Yamaha (or honda or whomever) can't predict where a bike gets sold. So they make a choice about how to tune a machine. And usually everything is then tuned similarly across the board. 
 
The one that always mystifies me is why a Mountain Snowmobile is advertised and marketed for deep snow at (usually) higher elevations- yet it's jetted for sea level (in the case of older carbed sleds.) They ALL have to be jetted from the get go!
 
Because Yamaha (Polaris, ski doo, etc) can't predict where it will be operated. So it's up to the consumer/shop to set it up.
 
Anyway, long explanation but probably why they do what they do.
 
-skip

[skipperT]

Mcycleguy45- No worries, one thing I love about this business is that you never stop learning. Hey-it's why we do, what we do! 
I personally learned quite a bit from your post.
 
To add to the discussion: Most bikes are Open-loop at idle while warming up (to 140 degrees in the case of the FJ09) although for example the Super Tenere is in Closed-loop right after start up! So it really can vary greatly from bike to bike.
 
The FJ09 can operate in Closed-Loop mode when:
 
-engine temp is up (usually above 140)
-trans is in gear and vehicle is moving, AND
-The engine speed is above 2,000 RPM
 
All 3 of those conditions must be met before the ECU will look to the O2 feedback.
 
IN ADDITION: the FJ must be operated in a manner that mimics:
-Slow acceleration and/or
-steady throttle cruise.
 
The FJ goes back into Open-Loop during QUICK acceleration.
 
My schooling has always stressed that the ONLY reason for O2 feedback is catalytic converter efficiency. Not necessarily to be rich or lean, but to optimize the efficiency of the cat. 
 
That is how Closed-loop, Open-loop mode is programmed for the FJ-09. As I mentioned, other bikes are different.  There would probably be more consistency among the manufacturers if they were all held to a standard similar to OBDII in the automotive world. But so far that hasn't happened in the Powersports industry.
 
-Skip 
 
 

[Guest lawrenceofsuburbia]

 
 
 

You made me go look.  I'm pretty sure the table starting on page 9-6, "Self-Diagnostic Function and Diagnostic Code Table" describes that information.  For instance: I got all excited - then found there is no section 9-6 in my Manual - it skips from 9-3 (Specs) to 10- 1 (consumer info).I wonder why?L of S

 

[jimf]

 
 

You made me go look.  I'm pretty sure the table starting on page 9-6, "Self-Diagnostic Function and Diagnostic Code Table" describes that information.  For instance: 

 
I got all excited - then found there is no section 9-6 in my Manual - it skips from 9-3 (Specs) to 10- 1 (consumer info).I wonder why?

 
You're looking at the owner's manual, I think; at least, what you're describing matches my owner's manual. This information is in the service manual, which I purchased separately.
 
 

[jimf]

The second reason is probably that the manufacturer doesn't know where a unit will be operated. So they make a decision to set it up for sea level or a generalized "most common" condition. For example, I live at 5k feet. Machines run rich up here and need to be tweaked. Yamaha (or honda or whomever) can't predict where a bike gets sold. So they make a choice about how to tune a machine. And usually everything is then tuned similarly across the board.

What you're saying is certainly correct for carbureted motors, or open-loop fuel injection, but closed-loop fuel injection, as used on the FJ and many newer bikes and watercraft and all modern automobiles, constantly adjusts the fueling according to current conditions.  This allows it to be programmed for ideal fueling within the tolerances of the fuel injection system and cam/valve arrangement across a huge range of ambient conditions -- temperature and altitude in particular.  From the perspective of the user always-good fueling is the biggest benefit: The bike starts easy on a cold day and it runs well even at high or low altitude.  Improved fuel mileage is another nice benefit since you'll never be running rich. 
When you get lean burn surging or other fueling issues on a closed-loop system it's either because the manufacturer didn't do their homework (the FZ-09 is a good case study for that IMO) and/or because they're trying to hit emissions goals that require a very lean burn (which is typical these days).  That's easy enough to correct either with a fuel map update (ECU reprogramming) or some kind of system that interposes between the ECU and monitoring or injection system to modify the information going into or out of the ECU to correct it (e.g. a Power Commander).
 
So anyway, on a bike like the FJ the manufacturer isn't programming for some average situation like they would have in the carburetor days; they don't have to, because the engine adjusts to that on the fly, literally second-by-second.  They're programming for emissions, for fuel economy, for controllability (e.g. no surging), for durability (e.g. the engine should run cool enough, the plugs shouldn't foul).  The priority of those individual goals may vary but these days emissions are paramount -- so many bikes run very lean, especially at low throttle levels.

[skipperT]

The second reason is probably that the manufacturer doesn't know where a unit will be operated. So they make a decision to set it up for sea level or a generalized "most common" condition. For example, I live at 5k feet. Machines run rich up here and need to be tweaked. Yamaha (or honda or whomever) can't predict where a bike gets sold. So they make a choice about how to tune a machine. And usually everything is then tuned similarly across the board.

What you're saying is certainly correct for carbureted motors, or open-loop fuel injection, but closed-loop fuel injection, as used on the FJ and many newer bikes and watercraft and all modern automobiles, constantly adjusts the fueling according to current conditions.  This allows it to be programmed for ideal fueling within the tolerances of the fuel injection system and cam/valve arrangement across a huge range of ambient conditions -- temperature and altitude in particular.  From the perspective of the user always-good fueling is the biggest benefit: The bike starts easy on a cold day and it runs well even at high or low altitude.  Improved fuel mileage is another nice benefit since you'll never be running rich. 
When you get lean burn surging or other fueling issues on a closed-loop system it's either because the manufacturer didn't do their homework (the FZ-09 is a good case study for that IMO) and/or because they're trying to hit emissions goals that require a very lean burn (which is typical these days).  That's easy enough to correct either with a fuel map update (ECU reprogramming) or some kind of system that interposes between the ECU and monitoring or injection system to modify the information going into or out of the ECU to correct it (e.g. a Power Commander).
 
So anyway, on a bike like the FJ the manufacturer isn't programming for some average situation like they would have in the carburetor days; they don't have to, because the engine adjusts to that on the fly, literally second-by-second.  They're programming for emissions, for fuel economy, for controllability (e.g. no surging), for durability (e.g. the engine should run cool enough, the plugs shouldn't foul).  The priority of those individual goals may vary but these days emissions are paramount -- so many bikes run very lean, especially at low throttle levels.

 
 
Yes, you and I are on the same page for the most part.
In the case of the FZ 09, my feeling is that sometimes things get a bit rushed to market. Also the way you ride vs the way I ride vs the way the test riders for Yamaha ride are different. You and I may ride or utilize the throttle in a way that Yamaha never experienced. Which is one reason why it's good that a manufacturer can change fueling via a simple reflash when something like a lean-stumble or hesitation turns up and many consumers start to experience a certain characteristic.
 
As long as it doesn't interfere with those emissions standards of course....
-skip
 

[bobdog]

I will admit that all of my professional experience is on cars, with the exception of my own bikes of course, and this is my first FI bike.     I did not realize that bikes were different.  I am old enough and not  foolish enough  to think that I know everything!!    I stand corrected.    
 
So bikes can slip into Open loop at idle?    What would be the purpose?   

My best guess is that they use the set map in open loop at idle to prevent higher emissions - Ie: Lean burn at idle with no load.  Running a little rich when cold was a common feature of carbureted engines. Now, the software tunes for air pressure, density and temperature (and other factors) so we can ride (in theory) from the Rockies to sea level and not ping (antiknock is probably in the software somewhere) when we get there.  Does anyone know how air mass/density is measured on the FJs? 
jimf, I miss changing needles and drilling, silver soldering and redrilling jets.  It was a winter/summer ritual on both cars and bikes - or if I ran AVGAS...
 
So, open loop to us old dogs is like default timing, advance, jets, mixture, stoichometry and EGT?  And the mode switches change that!  Woo Hoo.
 
 

[jimf]

jimf, I miss changing needles and drilling, silver soldering and redrilling jets.  It was a winter/summer ritual on both cars and bikes - or if I ran AVGAS...

 
I'm not going to lie, I hated tuning carbs, if only because you have to disassemble so much just to make small changes.  All I ever did was fix over-lean settings from the manufacturer that were causing poor operation, either by just adjusting the idle jet and/or installing a new jet kit.  I definitely don't have tuning intuition and I always relied on the help of expert friends for that.
 
I blame the fact that I was too poor to own any motor vehicles when I was young and had the time to take things apart constantly. Bicycles were my thing instead, and learning to wrench those was mostly a by-product of the fact that there was too much cost and downtime maintaining my abused mountain bikes if I didn't do it myself.  By the time I got my first moto I had too many responsibilities (aka The Daughter) to be able to spend hours tearing it down again and again unless it was actually broken.
 
Being a software guy by trade I would feel vastly more comfortable hacking the ECU, and I love the fact that you don't have to take anything apart to do it -- plug in, read, change, flash, go.  Alas the two bikes I've owned where that was possible both ran/run well enough that while it might make it work better, it's not bad enough to be considered a necessity. I gave real thought to buying TuneBoy for the Daytona, just because it would be cool to poke around and try to clean up its off-idle jerkiness, but chose instead to just ride the thing. I must be getting old :-).
 

[papac2000]

This fellow has made some kind of wiring mod and does something in DIAG. ANYONE WHO SPEAKS FRENCH PLEASE TRANSLATE!!!!
 
 

[papac2000]

Those of you with shop manuals. What is heading 70 in DIAG? I am getting the manual at first service, dealer said I can get it on USB flash drive. I just don't have it yet.

[skipperT]

Those of you with shop manuals. What is heading 70 in DIAG? I am getting the manual at first service, dealer said I can get it on USB flash drive. I just don't have it yet.

 
 
If you are DIAG mode, it is a "control number" from 1-254 according to the book. No other explanation is given about what it means.
 
If you see it as a Fault code number on the front display, it is an issue with the Idle.
 
-skip