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Mototcycle handling


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Ever since I wrote a post in another thread, motorcycling handling has been on my mind. More specifically the difference between street and track. I realized later the post I made was from track point of reference and not really street. 
 

How I need my track motorcycles to handle is far different than how I need my street motorcycles to handle. This is because of two factors…..speed and road surface conditions.

The only time on the street I ever hit track speeds or close to it is in a straight line……maybe some really long sweepers. Most the time, I am way under track speeds for cornering….but still pretty fast for the street.

i could never ride my track 04 R1 on the street with the same ride qualty of my Tracer. There are roads my R1 ride quality would be way to harsh that my Tracer soaks up.

All this is leading up to this point……..for the street……you can have good ride quality and good handling…….up to a point. 
 

I also wonder what types of roads people are riding on and at what speeds when they talk about making changes to improve handleing. Im running stock suspension with 18k on my GT. I took the time to understand the effects making suspension changes have on handling. It took me a year to do this.

I could upgrade the suspension, but how much more would it really add to my street riding? It may help handling under certain conditions and also make handling worse in others. Would that trade off be worth the price of new suspension?

 

Food for thought……

Just some early morning rambling…….


 

 

 


 


 

 

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Interesting thoughts. To your last question, that's very specific to the reader's financial situation and riding interests. This forum long ago came to the conclusion that the FJ is a budget bike compared to BMWs and Ducatis out there, but we still like it for what it is. 

Let's see - there is a whole range of upgrades. Getting the forks sprung for rider weight if it's outside Yamaha's design is a relatively inexpensive suspension upgrade that makes the bike safer as well as higher performing.

Aftermarket shocks can have less stiction so they provide more comfort and better handling at the same time.

Both of these upgrades improve the ride at any speed. 

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Even on a short 100 mile street ride you're likely to see a huge variety of road surfaces. So sure, there is no one perfect suspension setup on the street. But given that variability, not all bikes and suspension components perform the same.

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10 hours ago, duckie said:

...I could upgrade the suspension, but how much more would it really add to my street riding? It may help handling under certain conditions and also make handling worse in others. Would that trade off be worth the price of new suspension?

I've left the suspension stock on my BMW F800GT.  There's no adjustment to the front forks.  On the rear, I can adjust the preload and compression rebound.  I can switch between "Comfort", "Normal" and "Sport" for compression rebound.  It's a suspension made to a price point.

But when I rode with some extremely fast IMHO, riders who had almost double the horsepower of my lowly BMW...I kept up with them just fine in the twisties.  Hmm...

Then I've ridden a couple of the far more expensive BMWs with the Dynamic suspension.  On the R1200RT, I liked the feel of my suspension more.  On the R1200RS, I felt the suspension felt much rougher...but I didn't feel like I was riding any faster.

In the end, I came away feeling like my el cheapo suspension wasn't so bad after all.

Chris

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10 hours ago, duckie said:

I also wonder what types of roads people are riding on and at what speeds when they talk about making changes to improve handleing. Im running stock suspension with 18k on my GT. I took the time to understand the effects making suspension changes have on handling. It took me a year to do this.

I could upgrade the suspension, but how much more would it really add to my street riding? It may help handling under certain conditions and also make handling worse in others. Would that trade off be worth the price of new suspension?

I have upgraded the suspension on every bike I have owned for the past 30 years and have never regretted spending the money or been dissatisfied with the dramatic improvement in handling. 

When you upgrade your suspension, you discuss your wants and needs with the technician so it can be set up exactly to your specifications. 

I have a riding buddy who always brushed off my suggestions on upgraded suspension as frivolous and unnecessary, until we went on a road trip and swapped bikes for an hour in some canyon twisties.  He also has the same '15 FJ09 as I do, he couldn't believe the ride improvement when riding my bike, as soon as we got home from the trip, he ordered new suspension components.

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***2015 Candy Red FJ-09***

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Fork springs are the biggest suspension bang for the buck on many or most motorcycles. It's a great place to start, inexpensive, and can sort of open your eyes a little to what's possible. And as a pure safety benefit, you get much improved braking wuith more control and less dive; suspension is NOT just for going faster.

Like betoney, I've never once regretted one penny I've spent on needed suspension improvements. Good suspension can transform a bike's enjoyment and safety, even in the unlikely event the stock suspension is mostly OK-ish for you.

 

But overall, I'd say that upgrading your software is the best investment of time and cash by far. Getting some advanced rider training (I've attended and can highly recommend Lee Parks' Total Control Riding classes) and practice will have a DRAMATIC effect on your skills, enjoyment, and safety. You'll be faster (if that's what you want), you'll be more in control and having more fun in all situations, and yep, you'll be many times safer.

As a side effect, with upgraded skills you'll be FAR better equipped to pinpoint and evaluate changes to your suspension.

 

You also don't need to rush out and spend the maximum possible on Ohlins jewelry front and rear.

On my KLR's aft end, for example, I've been pretty darn happy with a stronger spring on the stock shock. It transforms the bike, gets the rear end working in the range it's supposed to, and honestly works a lot better than it has any right to for the low buy-in. It's pretty OK, and doesn't noticeably intrude on my enjoyment or comfort.

Sure, an aftermarket shock would make "pretty OK" into "pretty good", but at the moment I'd rather spend that $600-$1,200 on gas, and perhaps ride 2% slower in some places. I mean, it's still a KLR with a noodly steel pipe frame at the end of the day, so there is a point where it's just silly.

Of course, the FJ-09/Tracer chassis is light-years ahead of the humble KLR, and can indeed take good advantage of better suspension.

My FJ-09 came to me with a pretty good quality aftermarket shock and upgraded fork springs, and so far I'm pretty happy.

I had the shock rebuilt and rode for a few weeks with the stock shock. I think the aftermarket shock could be better, but it's better than the stocker.

The front end is fairly tolerable, but also could be better as well. At the moment I'm happy, but as I get bits of spare cash sloshing around I'll probably put some love into the front end.

Same for the brakes; coming from an assortment of relatively primitive bikes, I'm still super-impressed by the completely stock brakes on the FJ-09, rubber lines, stock pads, and all. I don't plan to make any changes any time soon.

Edited by bwringer
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Remember , I am riding a 2019 900gt. Therefore, my opinions are based on that model. 
 

But…..I have ridden the same roads on motorcycles with shit for suspensions…..and still rode fast.  Those mototcycles were…

83 Yamaha 650 Maxim shafty

95 Ducati 900ss

84 Kawaski 1100ltd shafty

94 Yamaha Seca II……the only Seca II in the country with a Ohilins shock. I got it only because it is rebuildable. But I wasnt that much faster than with the stock setup. Where the upgrades were of real benefit was on the track. Yep, the Seca has seen track days. Nothing like spanking liter motorcycles on a air cooled 600 making 50hp on a good day.

I did upgrade the Seca forks springs and added emulators.  It helped handling on some roads, but made the ride harsher on others. But worked great on the track.

I agree getting the right springs for your right is needed. But what more?

Weasal words…….learn them. There is s big difference in these two statements……

”can reduce stiction”

”does reduce stiction”

And will the average rider really feel the difference?

I wonder if people have unrealistic expectations of motorcycle suspensions. 
 

The only reason Im thinking of a upgraded shock for the GT is to be able to change shock oil. I dont think the stocker is rebuildable. Old suspension fluid is the biggest reason for suspension performance degradation. 
 

Street riding. That covers alot of different scenarios, well at least here in good ole California. I could go from lane splitting to hauling ass on Page Mill in about 30 minutes. Then, make  one turn and then on the goat trail from hell road.

And then there is the ole freeway droning……love cruise control.

Rider skill level. This is the biggest factor in motorcycle handling. If ya aint got the skills, the motocycle aint gonna handle correctly. Nothing you do to the suspension will help. Which is something else I wonder about when people make certain statements. Do they have they skill level to know what they are stating and what type of riding experiences they have. If ya never rode a motorcycle on the track, you dont know what fast is. I thought I was a fast street rider until I started racing and doing track days.  Now I AM a fast rider…… when I want to be. 

The point being just dont go making suspension changes just because you read that is what some else did.  This applies to me as well. Just my thoughts from my life experiences.


 

 

 


 

 

 

 

Edited by duckie
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Oh yeah…….what is street riding? Is it just weekend riding or is it a daily battle with traffic, weather, construction and so on?

I commuted on a motorcycle for years in all types of weather. So street riding to me encompasses a wide range of conditions and situations.

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3 hours ago, duckie said:

Weasal words…….learn them. There is s big difference in these two statements……

”can reduce stiction”

”does reduce stiction”

And will the average rider really feel the difference?

With 100k+ miles and multiple riding schools and track days, I'm not the average rider, but I do not have nearly the experience as some riders here probably including you, @duckie.

That said, upgraded suspension was absolutely noticeable to me over stock suspension on my 2001 Ninja. Smoother on rain grooved highways and potholed backroads and easier to pick and hold a line on the track (Intermediate).

Same with springs on the FJ09 - no more crazy fork dive. Immediately noticeable. @bwringer is right. 

The smoother ride on "normal" roads would have been instantly appreciated by any rider. Whether it was worth $1500 is in the eye of the rider but it made track days more fun and it made my commute and 600 mile street days less tiring.  

A suspension upgrade can make all of those things better. Or it can make a track prepped R1 better at just the track. Both of these are true.

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On 1/5/2022 at 6:39 AM, duckie said:

I could upgrade the suspension, but how much more would it really add to my street riding? It may help handling under certain conditions and also make handling worse in others. Would that trade off be worth the price of new suspension?

I'm curios as to what aspect of street riding handling would be made worse by upgrading the suspension? 

I had Traxxion Dynamics build me a Penske shock and my 2 requirements were more comfort for long distance riding and better compliance for mountain and canyon sport riding.  The shock dramatically improved both. 

I have the compression damping set and rarely touch it now but depending on the conditions I am riding I can add or subtract 1 or 2 clicks of rebound damping for noticeably different handling and ride quality.  Like you wrote in your other post, the damping affects the speed of suspension movement and that makes a very noticeable difference.

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***2015 Candy Red FJ-09***

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