2017 fj-09 turns over well ; but wont start unless fully charged

[howie333]

15 hours ago, skipperT said:

Shorai require their own charger. 
your local battery plus may require a special charger depending on the Li chemistry. Regardless you’ll need a new charger if you go Lithium. 
Ytz10s for $200 is a good price in my mind. Not to complicate matters, but you can also price a yt12 if you want a bigger battery. It’ll fit if you remove the foam.

-S 

Are there any other brand Lithium Iron type batteries you would recommend, sa. NOCO, Antigravity or similar . I'm seeing them lower than $300. Is there a difference and can any charger rated for any of the LIFEpo4 or Shorai battery safely work?

Thanks...

[KrustyKush]

A standard battery charger can be used on a lithium iron battery as long as it doesn’t exceed 15 volt and doesn’t perform a desulfate program.

However, a lithium appropriate charger isn’t very expensive. I use an Optimate charger. Very nice device. Costs around $100. Shorai makes their own branded charger that uses a special plug rather than going in thru the battery terminals.

Truth be known a lithium charger is probably not needed. A bike will keep the lithium charged just fine. If the bike must go into long term hibernation, simply disconnect the neg cable to relieve the parasitic draw. If climate is extreme, remove the battery and store it in the house. These batteries don’t discharge much they way the lead acids do, just sitting on the table. I had a Harley lithium in my 2018 FLTRU and never put it on a charger in 2 years. ‘Cause I rode the bike most every day. 

[skipperT]

8 hours ago, howie333 said:

Are there any other brand Lithium Iron type batteries you would recommend, sa. NOCO, Antigravity or similar . I'm seeing them lower than $300. Is there a difference and can any charger rated for any of the LIFEpo4 or Shorai battery safely work?

Thanks...

I don’t have any experience with any of those. Maybe asking the collective outside of this thread may get you some more brand opinions. It’s good that you’re doing all this research, IMHO. 
what @KrustyKush has laid out re Li chargers is correct, with the exception of Honda and Yamaha specific Li batteries equipped as oe on certain models (CRF1100, CRF’s, R1, YZ’s etc) - they REQUIRE the optimate Li charger, because that charger is equipped to reset the BMS part of the LiFePO4 battery and they (the OEM’s ) have deemed it a requirement for those batteries for consumer and dealer charging. 

Basically it boils down to most owners not being aware of what type of charger they have and confusion over what most home chargers do…. There’s been such a big push for owners to plug in battery tenders over the years (rightfully so!) that now the industry is faced with trying to re-educate all those people about why they can’t use their old charger (due to the desulfate mode) on an Li battery. 

-Skip

[KrustyKush]

Yes, you can use a “regular” charger on a lithium iron, but it is complicated and risky to your new pricey battery.

For sure, if you invest a couple hundred $ in a lithium iron, it makes a lot of sense to also buy a quality lithium iron type of charger to go with it. Your bike with a healthy charging system will maintain the lithium battery just fine and may never need to be put on a charger. It doesn’t make sense to try to get an archaic charger work on one of these new batteries. Lithium iron are as different from lead acid as fuel injection is from a carburetor. Few would want to go back to a carb.

 

[howie333]

After some research, seems the Antigravity ATZ-10 lithium Iron battery is probably the best alternative from a AGM battery @$180/ Amazon. There's seems to be as almost as many issues w/ a OEM type Yausa as a Chinese copy brand. NOCO and Shorai are less expensive, some are pleased, but some have had problems even w/ correct chargers and wouldn't buy again. 

[Lone Wolf]

On 1/2/2023 at 6:21 PM, howie333 said:

Bike won't start up... Battery replaced less than a year ago...

When it comes to batteries, you have to aim high and pull the trigger. 

Shopping by price will put you back where you started.

[howie333]

23 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

When it comes to batteries, you have to aim high and pull the trigger. 

Shopping by price will put you back where you started.

Yea, i'm gett'in that. I never thought I'd have to spend $200 for a motorcycle battery that will last close to what they'd used to on my older bikes. I know my Ninja 650 had lower compression than the FJ, and now have small parasitic loads I guess load the battery down. I'd stay w/ a AGM battery if the differences weren't close, maybe $55.    

[howie333]

What should the parasitic draw from a 2017 FJ-09 ? That may be a choosing factor for a lithium battery. I should be OK if it's slight with a BMS built into the given battery anyway, but I'll just have to keep it charged when not in use for a week or so. I'd probably need to do that even w/ a AGM battery anyway.

[OZVFR]

I've had an SSB lithium battery on my Tracer for over a year.

The actual battery was installed on my 1050 Sprint a year before that, and I pulled it out when I sold it.

Many times the bike has sat for over 4 weeks with no noticeable drop when used again.

It starts better and faster than with the Yuasa gel.

It even went flat once, after leaving a phone charger pugged in for a week and had no problem recharging it with a standard charger. (SSB have a cut out circuit to stop it going completely flat)

Edited January 7, 2023 by OZVFR

[betoney]

23 hours ago, howie333 said:

Yea, i'm gett'in that. I never thought I'd have to spend $200 for a motorcycle battery that will last close to what they'd used to on my older bikes.

 

26 minutes ago, howie333 said:

What should the parasitic draw from a 2017 FJ-09 ?

There shouldn't be any parasitic draw, if something is draining your battery then you should fix that before buying more expensive batteries.  Is something shorted or wired incorrectly? 

You shouldn't need to be replacing a battery in only 3-4 years, my FJ09 is 8 years old, my VFR1200 is 6 years old, my previous FZ1 was 10 years old and I have never bought a battery for any of them.  I bought a battery for my truck once but don't remember exactly how long ago that was, 13-14 years maybe?

[howie333]

1 hour ago, OZVFR said:

I've had an SSB lithium battery on my Tracer for over a year.

The actual battery was installed on my 1050 Sprint a year before that, and I pulled it out when I sold it.

Many times the bike has sat for over 4 weeks with no noticeable drop when used again.

It starts better and faster than with the Yuasa gel.

It even went flat once, after leaving a phone charger pugged in for a week and had no problem recharging it with a standard charger. (SSB have a cut out circuit to stop it going completely flat)

I just measured .5ma or 500ma  not sure I'm reading right. I guess I should be concerned. I like the Antigravity lithium Battery cause it's got a Jumper button that will start bike up even when the BMS shut off to save battery from excessive low or high voltage. Looks good unless otherwise I find similar @ a lower price. Battery Mart sells a basic AGM(Scorpion) for $50, and a Motocross (Yuasa version) for $160 ,and batterystuff says its basically same battery w/ a Yuasa sticker! Both 1 year warrentee. No way I'm paying $160 for that short a warrantee !  I don't know what could be causing a parasitic load off a basically stock wiring layout.  

Edited January 7, 2023 by howie333

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, howie333 said:

...and batterystuff says its basically same battery w/ a Yuasa sticker! 

Reminds me of the time about 10 years ago when a Cycle Gear employee said their discounted chain was same as DID, rebranded. That chain was disposable, did not last at all.

You are basically going to get what you pay for, especially with a battery.

[howie333]

Well, All I really need now is to know if the 2017 FJ-09 has an normal parasitic amperage draw while ignition is off. I do have a relay to a fuse bar for brake/flash feature tail light, a chain oiler, 12 v aux. socket and wiring for a GPS. When ignition switch is off, so should be any loads I've added. I'm reading .5 on a 20ma scale, so assume I have a .5m leak. 2ma,20m,or 200m; still reads .5

Edited January 7, 2023 by howie333

[Lone Wolf]

13 hours ago, howie333 said:

I just measured .5ma or 500ma  not sure I'm reading right. 

...All I really need now is to know if the 2017 FJ-09 has an normal parasitic amperage draw while ignition is off.

I think this article is true for basically all motorcycles - 

The way to check is to remove the negative battery cable and place your volt-ohm meter in the current (amps) mode. With the key off, place the meters leads between the negative cable and the battery's negative terminal. The current draw should be zero, but a small drain on the order of a few milliamps is acceptable. A drain of an amp or more is reason for further investigation.

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/dead-motorcycle-battery/

Obviously you are going to have to research your meter, and get confident of the reading or else the number is useless. I had a family member Lexus that would drain batteries, drove me nuts. Finally heard an odd clicking sound, there was a CD changer that was "doing work" when ignition was off and it was a factory installed device. That fixed it.

Countless times I have connected battery to various vehicles and seen a small spark, which "shouldn't" be there but it is the world we live in. Get a real, accurate, hard number on the actual ampere draw when ignition is off. That is the starting point. 

A milliamp is equal to one-thousandth of an ampere. Thus, one milliamp is equal to 0.001 amperes.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Lone Wolf

[howie333]

3 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

I think this article is true for basically all motorcycles - 

The way to check is to remove the negative battery cable and place your volt-ohm meter in the current (amps) mode. With the key off, place the meters leads between the negative cable and the battery's negative terminal. The current draw should be zero, but a small drain on the order of a few milliamps is acceptable. A drain of an amp or more is reason for further investigation.

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/dead-motorcycle-battery/

Obviously you are going to have to research your meter, and get confident of the reading or else the number is useless. I had a family member Lexus that would drain batteries, drove me nuts. Finally heard an odd clicking sound, there was a CD changer that was "doing work" when ignition was off and it was a factory installed device. That fixed it.

Countless times I have connected battery to various vehicles and seen a small spark, which "shouldn't" be there but it is the world we live in. Get a real, accurate, hard number on the actual ampere draw when ignition is off. That is the starting point. 

A milliamp is equal to one-thousandth of an ampere. Thus, one milliamp is equal to 0.001 amperes.

OK, I've borrowed a quality multimeter, and I'm getting .5ma or .0005A parasitic drain at this time. I'll check all fused outputs to find drain, but I assume its internal clock, or any other memory loads. I just need to know if that draw is normal and required as a minimum.