Hyperpro progressive fork springs?

[justplainbill]

I know that Forks by Matt sells Hyperpro rear shocks -- which use progressive springs. But if he sells Hyperpro fork springs, he isn't listing them.

Not sure what led you to believe I sell Hyperpro shocks. I only carry JRi, Ohlins, Nitron and maybe soon K-Tech. The JRi shocks use a Hyperpro shock spring since they are the only ones who make a 5" spring (Technically Eibach has them too but good luck getting one). The rate on it is straight, however. 
I very much doubt there is any "special thought" given by a fork spring supplier that has progressive springs in their catalog for a given bike aside from initial rate, final rate, and stroke depth of the transition. The KYB suspension was done poorly and cheap.
 
 
 

My bad, I mistakenly assumed you sold all the items listed in your thread "Shock upgrades and compatible swaps".  I see now you were just listing items available on the market for the FJ. 
Because the forks are (in your judgment) poorly done and cheap doesn't mean there wasn't special thought to the design - especially since the cost of dual rate springs is higher than single rate springs. So keeping costs down wasn't a determining consideration in the choices the designers took.  And, while guys like me on forums complain about FJ suspension, lots more are happily riding the wheels off their FJ's.  If the suspension was truly crap, instead of not as good as it could be, you wouldn't have time to contribute to the discussions here for all the work you'd get from unhappy FJ owners.  Or nobody would buy FJ's - and that isn't happening either.   And I guess I'm saying that, because my forks seem to have (miraculously) improved from how they were new, and the only change I'm aware of is having put more miles on the bike (call it break in).   So I'm willing to admit that I was wrong in my early assessment that the forks were crap (though I still feel that way about the rear shock).  
 
 
 
 

[pattonme]

So keeping costs down wasn't a determining consideration in the choices the designers took.

 
Chuckle... The cost of the KYB parts to have both legs fully damped (instead of saddling owners with a dead leg) is less than $100 at retail! Yamaha cheaped out big time. I don't doubt a 2-stage spring is more expensive than a straight rate but I think we're talking pennies, not tens of dollars. The designers did NOT have your best (reasonable) interests at heart when they picked the parts. They deliberately chose to minimize cost and compromise performance because they know that probably 80% of the riders don't know any better.
 
Would an increase of $200 in MSRP have dramatically reduced units sold? I wouldn't have thought so but then I'm not a privy to those kinds of details.
 
> lots more are happily riding the wheels off their FJ's.
 
True. The vast majority of bike owners will ride their mounts as-is.
 
> So I'm willing to admit that I was wrong in my early assessment that the forks were crap (though I still feel that way about the rear shock).
 
Yes the shock is needlessly poor. The FJ is much better damped than the FZ for sure!
 

[justplainbill]

To close the loop on this subject (for now), I sent an email to EPM Performance Importers (U.S. importer of Hyperpro products) inquiring about starting and ending spring rate for their FJ-09 fork springs. Got this answer: "The springs are progressive = rising rate and have a rate range of 8.2 – 12.8 N/mm or .82 – 1.28 kg/mm" . Not exactly comparing oranges to oranges, because OEM FJ-09 springs are "dual rate" (first 85 mm of travel rated at 0.70 Kg-f/mm and the remaining 74 mm of travel rated at 0.95 Kg/mm) not rising rate, the OEM springs are considerably "softer" than the Hyperpro springs. So Hyperpro springs could work well for heavier riders.
 
I will continue learning and trying to improve my stock fork setup and haven't ruled out anything. (Except pouring cubic dollars into the suspension to achieve results I can't appreciate.)
 
 
 

[xlxr]

I'm having a hard time figuring out my suspension as well.  Seems like this bike is schizophrenic when it comes to suspension.  I loosened up all the bolts in the rear linkage and lightly re-torqued them, that seemed to help, they were over-tightened from the factory.
 

[adjuster]

So, for a really big dude, like me, who's still over 400lbs, what would you recommend Matt? (Besides a gastric bypass.... LOL)
 
I've been riding large for years, bought the 2006 FZ1 because everyone complained it was sprung too hard, but for me, with the R1 shock, using the FZ1 spring, and flipped upside down to fit, worked great. (Had high/low speed and rebound as well as preload rings.) The custom links I had to make changed the ratios too, and it was dang firm. Barely any sag when I sat on it, the front I had full preload cranked down, and it was a nice firm ride, but not back breaking like the stock shock was. (Cheap, just like the one on the FJ09.)
 
Currently I'm just riding the FJ on full shock preload, and 5 lines showing on the forks, they are much firmer than the FZ09 was. (Had a 2014 FZ09, but it's engine died, and I traded up to the FJ09 that I like much better.) The funny thing is, the FZ was so fun, even with the suspension acting like a kid's 80cc dirt bike being ridden by a full size adult. The FZ was like a big supermoto. I was sliding it around and having too much fun, way too much fun, the suspension was SO soft for me, even on full preload front and rear, it was silly, but again, for commuting to work, a blast on a triple supermotor. (Bike was lighter than the rider.. feels like a supermoto to me. I had my FZ1 setup the same way, taper bars, rizoma risers, and the R1 shock fixed the too harsh valving on the stock shock for that bike.
 
So back to the current setup. I have a 06-07 GSXR shock that I planned on putting on the FZ09. It's got the high/low speed and rebound as well as preload of course. I was going to buy a stiffer spring, or was looking for a used 2006 FZ1 spring, since they were hated by many.
 
For the forks, I don't mind the FJ09 ones nearly as much as the FZ's saggy setup. I'd like to get a second set of valves in the left leg to give me compression adjustment and improve on the stock rebound in the right leg. I see you offer such a modification right? The stock springs seem to be working, and I'm sure I'm supposed to have higher rate ones in there, but can we cut a few coils off the stock ones, to raise the rate, and just put in longer spacers? Done that in the past on other bikes, and it's worked okay for me.
 
Any ideas are perfect. Losing weight is an ongoing process, so eventually I'm going to need to revise the entire bike again, but I'm riding it now, and it's not terrible, but I don't push the bike very hard like I did with the FZ09 either. Same mechanical bits, but it makes me ride more responsible for some reason most of the time. (But It can be just as fun when I want it.)
 
One more thing. I was looking under the seat, charging up my battery, and the ABS unit on the FJ is right where the "space" was for the shock oil/bladder... Anyone else running into this between the FJ and FZ?
 

[pattonme]

> Barely any sag when I sat on it
 
Yes, even at 400lb the suspension needs to be in it's stroke. I don't think I can find springs any higher than 1.1kg/mm - but Sonic will do any custom rate that's technically possible). My chart doesn't go that high but 1.05 to 1.1 looks to be on the money.
 
> the FZ was so fun, even with the suspension acting like a kid's 80cc dirt bike being ridden by a full size adult
 
Yes, I know the feeling.
 
> I have a 06-07 GSXR shock
 
Please, do yourself a solid and let @norwest re-do it for you. I don't have the FZ1 (which year?) spring rate handy but none of them are suitable AFAIK. You're looking at needing 750~800lb/in I think. Only a honda shock (some of them go as high as 1100lb/in) would have a prayer of handling such rebound demands. But as others can attest, getting it reworked is worth every penny.
 
> The stock springs seem to be working
What are your sag values?
 
> can we cut a few coils off
Not sure how much spring you'd have left and also doubt you'd be able to maintain 120-130mm before coil-bind.
 
rate (lb/in) = 11,250,000 x (wire_diameter ^4 / x active_turns x mean_diameter^3
 
 

[justplainbill]

1999-2007 Hayabusa rear shock has a spring rate of 733 lbs/in (13.1 Kg/mm), same length (13") as FJ, is supposed to fit the FJ and is readily available used on eBay. Has preload, compression and rebound damping adjustments - not high speed. Reservoir is pretty big...might have to be mounted upside down?

[pattonme]

I can get 1.05 and 1.1 springs in the right diameter. Just need a PVC spacer since they are shorter than OE. Coil bind is also confirmed to be greater than 130.

[adjuster]

Cool, so there are some options I can do.
 
And for the forks, you do the dual valves right Matt? I figure they are not that bad for me now, but with rebound and compression being set right, and able to fine tune them with dual valves, and right side top caps, it's the poor man's best option.
 
And I will send the shock in and get it re-valved if it's really bad, it's about 1/2" shorter than the OEM 13" eye to eye, so I was going to make slightly LONGER links (Like the guys who lower, but going the other way.) to get it back to the right ride height, and might add a few mm because I like a bike that turns faster, but not too much, or I might need a steering damper.
 
What is the stock shock spring rate on the 2015 FJ09? I think the 2006 FZ1 was 600 or 700lbs. The next year, in 2007, they lowered it by 100lbs, and most folks liked the change.

[norwest]

What is the stock shock spring rate on the 2015 FJ09? I think the 2006 FZ1 was 600 or 700lbs. The next year, in 2007, they lowered it by 100lbs, and most folks liked the change.

The spring remains unchanged from the FZ-09 to the FJ-09 as they were close enough in rate FZ-09 9.8 kg/mm FJ-09 9.9 kg/mm. 
2006 FZ1 is right at 12.0 kg/mm or 671 lbs/in.
 
 
 

[adjuster]

Interesting. I'd swear if you asked me, the FZ09 and FJ09 ride completely different. The spring seems much higher rate on the FJ v/s the FZ, but it's basically the same.
 
Did they change the valves in the shock?
 
I had the preload on both bikes the same, most possible. ON the FZ, I had to crank the fork preload full on, to the base, flush. No lines. With the FJ, It's about 5 lines up, and does not dive like the FZ when you apply the brakes.

[norwest]

The valving is completely different on the FJ shock and the spring is a bit longer on the FJ so that gives you more preload then the FZ would using the same ramp number.
 
Ok getting confused here as you mentioned shock spring in your post 2 up and now you are mentioning fork spring preload in the above post.
 
My findings are based off a shock spring rate tester I have here and do check it for accuracy every few months or when something likes this happens as I read that the FJ was stiffer as well but no hard data was available. So purchased a FJ shock and tested it myself.
 
In case you want to see the difference between both FZ and FJ shocks and valving, FZ09 vs FJ09 Shock
 

[pattonme]

The fork damping is also very different between the FZ and FJ which will significantly affect dive and other factors beyond fork spring length or minor rate change.