Cam Chain Tensioner Recall Canada

[cyclonicks]

s2 and an almost gone yellow dot

[captainscarlet]

Too funny that Yamaha, in what appears to be an effort to save face? They continue to push the "Same" basic flawed design that fails. 
And they all fail. It is ONLY a matter of time. It's not if your stock CCT will fail, it's when.
 
Could be 100k, could be day one. Mine on my 2014 FZ09 went with a screeetch noise and a locked up rear tire. Nearly tossed me off the bike, and did it right when I'd just passed an angry Ford F350 Turbo Diesel truck who was spooling up on my butt.

I have followed this subject with some interest and in particular your often lengthy and vociferous posts on this matter. Having also read the threads over in FZ-09.org it's pretty apparent that you attempted your own modification on your CCT and that is what caused your engine failure. Page 4 on this [/url]thread is particularly enlightening. 
I realise that a proportion of the CCTs fitted to the CP3 motor have not performed as they should.  But to shout out to anyone that will listen that we're all on a countdown to a horrible accident is at best simply not true and at worst scaremongering of the worst kind.  How many CP3 engines has Yamaha knocked out?  I'm guessing thousands if not tens of thousands.  How many faulty CCTs have resulted in a catastrophic engine seizure?  So far I've only heard about yours.  How is this possible?
 
Furthermore why do people insist on referring to a "recall"?  There is no recall!  Yamaha have issued a TSB that says if people experience a noisy CCT, that is confirmed by the dealer, then they will happily replace it.  Why on earth would Yamaha replace a part in a motor that is in perfect working order?  To demand that they do so in my opinion is wrong.  If the CCT was a potential safety hazard then a recall would be issued, but a recall hasn't been issued.
 
I have referred to this in a couple of posts previously and I repeat it here again.  Motorrad (Europe-wide bike mag) completed a long-term 50 000 km test of an MT-09 and despite having a rattly CCT that was replaced by Yamaha at the end of the test, the engine was within manufacturing tolerances.  That's manufacturing tolerances, not wear tolerances, meaning the engine was as good as when it was first assembled.  Surely if your version of the CCT situation is to be believed the engine would have been on the ragged edge of failure with serious wear around the cam chain and tensioner.  It wasn't.
 
People on this board have completed many thousands of kilometres with their original CCT and without a problem and I'm one of them.
 
Adjuster, this is not a personal attack, I'm just trying to present what in my view is a more balanced appraisal of the situation.
 
CS
 
 
 
 

[baretta]

My CCT started making noise a couple of months ago. I brought it to the dealership and they tested it and said they could not hear anything and would not replace it. I mentioned to them the open TSB (canada) and they confirmed there was a TSB for this, but replacements only happen if the dealership can verify the CCT noise. Most dealerships only hire mechanics that are deaf and blind from my experience because they can never see or hear anything. I will ride the bike as is and hopefully it doesn't explode underneath me.

[britelitebob]

My CCT started making noise a couple of months ago. I brought it to the dealership and they tested it and said they could not hear anything and would not replace it. I mentioned to them the open TSB (canada) and they confirmed there was a TSB for this, but replacements only happen if the dealership can verify the CCT noise. Most dealerships only hire mechanics that are deaf and blind from my experience because they can never see or hear anything. I will ride the bike as is and hopefully it doesn't explode underneath me.

   I would go back there and order one and pay for it, then tell them you have another shop that will put it in for you when you get it. 

[adjuster]

Glad you have been following the saga of the CCT failure on the CP3 engine.
 
And I grant you have your opinion that I caused it to fail by being too tight.
 
There are a few facts we have to consider here:
 
1)The stock CCT has a ratchet mechanism to tighten up as normal wear happens to the timing chain slider material.
2)The early versions did not have enough oil to lubricate the "notches" cut into the inner diameter of the mechanism, causing early wear, and failure to hold a set point.
3)The early versions also had batches or versions with suspect machine work that either was too rough, or too smooth, and would depending on the bike/CP3 engine build, never be able to hold a set point or it would "only" engage at the outer extended point, due to lack of notches, or due to wear the "optimum adjustment point" causing noise and a loose flapping timing chain.
4)Many folks pulled the center bolt, that covers the access hole where a tech can use a small allen wrench to adjust the tension on the stock CCT and get it engaged with the ratchet mechanism at a point where the noise goes away, and it is not too tight. (The failure being that you can adjust this CCT 100 times, and it will pop right back out of adjustment with one run up and down the RPM range as the loads change, the CCT just loses it's set point, and then noise ensues again, while the timing chain flops around, even to the point of hitting the case inside.)
5)Many FZ09's swiftly went to this "band aid" fix of a set screw and lock nut. And a member even listed the parts needed, and put a kit together for folks who did not want to chase parts to use with instructions on how to install and set the depth dependent "set" screw that replaced the stock bolt that just covers the access hole, but does not touch the ratchet mechanism.
 
Case in point here, the DEPTH of the set screw "fix" would limit the stock CCT from "racheting back" loose, and cause noise. This worked great on many bikes, but some folks over tightened the set screw, and even broke the ratchet mechanism that was/is held in place by a flimsy bent spring steel clip that holds the ratchet teeth out against the inner bore with the groves, and these parts have "teeth" that engage with the groves machined into the inner bore to keep it set in place. A great idea that over time, with normal wear, this multi-part assembly can ratchet down to the next set of groves, and keep the tension correct on the timing chain over the life of the CP3 engine.
 
The problem with the execution of the stock CCT is that flimsy spring does not keep the ratchet in place. And on worn, or poorly machined units, the teeth would just slide up and down the bore, further taking the edges off the grooves, and wearing the unit till it just pogo's in and out with changing loads. The only thing holding the cam tensioner under load is a coil spring that is not designed to provide enough pressure to keep the unit quiet and timing accurate over the entire RPM range of this engine.
 
Yamaha's fix for this is to increase the amount of oil supplied to the ratchet mechanism, in an effort to limit wear of these teeth, and the bore grooves they need to lock into for the Rube Goldberg device to work correctly.
And that on the older CP3 engines takes a new cam cover bolt and spacer to allow oil to bypass and lubricate the CCT. The newer CP3 engines have changes to the oil passeges and machine work done to them at the factory, so they supply more oil to the CCT than the early CP3 design.
 
Some folks who did the set screw mod found that even light pressure on the spring clip that holds the "ratchet" teeth in place, will cause it to fail and break into many parts. These are small, spring steel flat stampings, and if caught up in your gear box/engine, will do harm as they are not at all like the softer aluminum of the timing chain slider backing plates that hold the nylon sliders that the chain is designed to be held in tension with.
 
A bike in Utah died a similar death to mine. A few in the EU also had failures that resulted in engine damage, including bent valves due to a chain jumping the cam sprocket or drive sprocket. There are others that I do not know about, but most had noise, and often very loud noise and metal debris in the case from a loose timing chain slapping the case as the loads change during normal engine operation.
 
Yamaha issued a TSB advising dealers to be on the lookout for set screw, and lock nut equipped CP3 engines, and advised that warrenty coverage for same would not be extended. Many riders/owners just took the risk, and rode the bikes with the set screws since there was no noise that way, and some CP3 engines ran fine that way. The worn out ratchet could not back out too far due to the set screw, and it did not ratchet too tight.
 
BUT, and this is huge point, some did continue to ratchet too tight. Even some with ZERO modifications failed and the ratchet continued to keep on notching tighter and tighter, till the engine failed. (Utah for example, and a Greek guy both failed this way.)
 
When I put a set screw in my CCT, it was only finger tight. I used a allen head threaded rod. When the engine was running, you can finger turn the rod, and it made noise up to where the depth of the rod was threaded in far enough to limit the "ratchet" from backing off, and cause noise. I then measured that depth with a Caliper, and using a bolt, and washers, created a similar depth using the washers to limit depth, and added one washer extra, the thin stock one under the access bolt, to add even a few thousands more "shorter" depth to the screw. So, finger tight, no noise while running, then marked the rod, measured the depth, and made sure the "bolt" was a few thousands shorter.
 
That makes the tension less than it was when measured. It was mostly quiet, but I was not happy with this "bandaid" fix, and bought a APE unit, as they had just become available, and many folks were installing them with great results. Set it and forget it. Graves also came out with a unit to replace the stock failure prone design.
 
The day my CCT failed, and locked up the timing chain killing the engine, and locking up my rear wheel, when I got home, the APE unit was in my mail box....
 
So, I hoped that the lock up on my way to work just sounded worse than it was.. After all, the bike still ran, but was DANG noisy now. The chain slap was very loud, and I babied the bike home, keeping rpm down under 2k to just limp home. Any more rpm, and it sounded like loose nuts and bolts in a dryer.
 
When I pulled the stock CCT, it appeared fine. No broken parts I could see. When I pulled the timing chain access cover to make sure I adjusted the APE manual unit correctly, I found the case full of nylon shavings all curled up and full of aluminum shavings. The chain was blue from heat. The chain had worn down to the metal backing on the intake side, and there was serious wear to the exhaust side as well.
 
Now, if my bolt was too long, it can NOT get any longer. It's a fixed depth. Set by washers, and the depth established by both my reading of what others were doing with the set screw mod, and my own measurements using a caliper on the bike while finger tight adjustment.
 
The fact is, the ONLY way the CCT extended further to the point of the wear I had on my FZ09, was due to the ratchet mechanism continuing to push out on the plunger that pushes on the intake side cam chain slider.
 
If you look on that same discussion board, they have a cut apart stock CCT, showing the worn out grooves, the broken weak spring clip that is supposed to hold the "teeth" in place on the ratchet system, and clearly on a few bikes, mine included, the system failed, and it continued to get ever tighter to the point of locking up the chain due to the heat, pressure and friction.
 
The last fact I'd like to point out is how many folks have had a failure of the MANUAL CCT? (Including myself?)
 
That would be zero. None. Zip.
 
Too bad Yamaha can't make that same claim eh?
 
 
 
 
Oh, and one more thing to consider? Why does EVERY race team, including the Yamaha Factory Team, Graves Motorsports, immediately remove the "automatic" cam chain tension devices and replace them with a manual unit?
Here is a hint: It's not because the stock units are so reliable, so well designed and prone to never fail.
 
And none of us really ever ride our bikes right? Never take it to red line... Hit the rev limiter or apply loads to the CP3 engine that put it under stresses like you might see in racing? Never pass any cars... Never pull any wheelies... Go up hills under power, or blast out a perfect corner after clipping the apex just right.. Never.
 

[justplainbill]

Could be 100k, could be day one. Mine on my 2014 FZ09 went with a screeetch noise and a locked up rear tire. Nearly tossed me off the bike, and did it right when I'd just passed an angry Ford F350 Turbo Diesel truck who was spooling up on my butt.
 
<SNIP>
 Causes shaved metal to be pushed around your engine with the oil. It creates heat from friction and you can have parts get so hot, and so much friction, that it does like my engine, and LOCKS UP THE ENGINE. Sliding the rear tire.
<SNIP>
And it will do this at speed, when you have enough RPM to get the heat and friction to cause the lock up. Slide your rear tire without you planning on it at 70mph... It's no fun.
 
 

Good explanation of the cause and effect of a faulty CCT Adjuster.  Having experienced a seized engine/locked up rear wheel (different cause) at speed and in traffic, I thought it might be useful to mention that if you ever do sense the engine seizing, or if the rear tire locks up, you need to pull in the clutch lever so the wheel unlocks and the bike can be coasted to a stop.  And the quicker you get the clutch in, the less speed you lose and better your chances are of getting to the side of the road safely. 

[captainscarlet]

Blah....blah....blah.... 
Nothing to see here....
 
Blah....blah....blah....
 
Nothing that's not been said before....
 
Blah....blah....blah....

I've paraphrased your post above and can only come to the conclusion that despite it's length it contained no new information.  The following is essentially what we both agree on, but have stated in different ways: 
[ol type=decimal][*]You fiddled with your CCT and your engine blew up.[*]Yamaha have a problem with some of the CCT's fitted to the CP3 engine.[*]A TSB has been issued for CCT's that are found to be faulty and they are being replaced free of charge.[*]Some people are demanding replacement of perfectly functioning CCT's which is presumably what is contributing to the waiting time for said item.[/ol]
 
I think that just about covers it.  One thing I still can't grasp is that you argue strongly that the design of the CCT leads inherently to a loose cam chain as tension can't be maintained.  This is what creates the chain noise we all here when we start our bikes as 100% of CCT's will fail....no wait hang on a minute.....
 
In the next paragraph we're to believe that the design of the CCT is such that it is, with every ride, winding it's way in like an ever tightening screw of death....no wait hang on a minute.....
 
As to the statement "why do race teams all fit a manual CCT?", well if that's your argument then I should be replacing pretty much all the major components on my bike.
 
CS
 
 
 
 

[DavidS]

My CCT started making noise a couple of months ago. I brought it to the dealership and they tested it and said they could not hear anything and would not replace it. I mentioned to them the open TSB (canada) and they confirmed there was a TSB for this, but replacements only happen if the dealership can verify the CCT noise. Most dealerships only hire mechanics that are deaf and blind from my experience because they can never see or hear anything. I will ride the bike as is and hopefully it doesn't explode underneath me.

I would look for another Yamaha dealer and see if they will replace it. There have been many folks on the forum who have indicated that their dealers didn't even listen to the bike, but just replaced it upon hearing the customer complaining about the noise.