Yamaha Unofficial Known Issue with FJ and FZ Engines

[vinnie]

Checked a few more sites and they showed 5/28/18 availability from manufacturer

I know they say that. I have been waiting since Feb

[panooch]

Well that all sucks. Sorry to hear about your misfortune. YAMAHA, where are you?

[tray]

Sorry to hear about your bike. Mine is also beginning to disappoint me.
 
I have found this video on Youtube that might be related.
 
[video src=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY3faLPp1v0]
 
 

[koth442]

Do the EX valves wiggle in the guides? Do the valves have runout?

[skipperT]

Do the EX valves wiggle in the guides? Do the valves have runout?

 
Yes, I’d like to know this as well.
 
Because the photos you attached of the head don’t show any abnormal wear in the seats (that I can tell in a photograph.)
 
If the sealing surface of the ex valves started to become “dished” and worn then ok, they’re toast.
 
If the valve stems have excessive play in guides or where the guide is pressed in the head then that’s another story. The head is junk at that point.
 
Did a machine shop check the head? Or just the tech? How long has he been a tech?
 
FWIW - lots of other companies make valves: Kibblewhite, vesrah, etc that are available from the aftermarket. If you are really in a bind, have your shop look through the big 3 distribution books (parts unlimited, western power sports, and tucker Rocky) and see if any of their warehouses have available stock.
 
FZ09’s use the same ex valve which might help you widen the search.
 
What kind of air filter have you used while owning the bike?
 
How many times have you been at a stoplight and pulled the “sportbike move” of holding the throttle at WOT in neutral and banging the engine off of red line?
 
Just getting more background information.
 
-Skip

[skipperT]

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You can see how the exhaust seats are beat down into the head, unlike the intake seats.

 
I can see that only if the ex valve seats were cut from the factory the same as the intake valve seats.
 
If they didn’t use a multi angle valve cutters, then I’d need to measure and use mechanics dye with the ex valve seats to really see how they are contacting the head. And if they’re sealing properly.
 
-S

[koth442]

https://s7.postimg.cc/uuxk9xsbv/IMG_20180221_173118355_HDR.jpg' alt='IMG_20180221_173118355_HDR.jpg'> 

 
You can see how the exhaust seats are beat down into the head, unlike the intake seats.

I can see that only if the ex valve seats were cut from the factory the same as the intake valve seats.  
If they didn’t use a multi angle valve cutters, then I’d need to measure and use mechanics dye with the ex valve seats to really see how they are contacting the head. And if they’re sealing properly.
 
-S

Without a "new" or good looking head to compare with, its difficult to know whether the recessed valve seats are by design or accident. My suspicion is the recess is normal though.

[vinnie]

Do the EX valves wiggle in the guides? Do the valves have runout?

Yes, I’d like to know this as well. 
Because the photos you attached of the head don’t show any abnormal wear in the seats (that I can tell in a photograph.)
 
If the sealing surface of the ex valves started to become “dished” and worn then ok, they’re toast.
 
If the valve stems have excessive play in guides or where the guide is pressed in the head then that’s another story. The head is junk at that point.
 
Did a machine shop check the head? Or just the tech? How long has he been a tech?
 
FWIW - lots of other companies make valves: Kibblewhite, vesrah, etc that are available from the aftermarket. If you are really in a bind, have your shop look through the big 3 distribution books (parts unlimited, western power sports, and tucker Rocky) and see if any of their warehouses have available stock.
 
FZ09’s use the same ex valve which might help you widen the search.
 
What kind of air filter have you used while owning the bike?
 
How many times have you been at a stoplight and pulled the “sportbike move” of holding the throttle at WOT in neutral and banging the engine off of red line?
 
Just getting more background information.
 
-Skip

Let me address each of these things individually to answer each point. 
The valves wiggled a lot in the guides. You could visibly see they wiggled a lot and, of course, feel it by hand too. The seats on the head were very deformed, compared to the new one. I will see if I can get pics of the new head to show here.
 
The tech is one of the shop owners. Three mechanics total looked at the situation and myself (mechanical engineer). Their conclusion made sense to me, based on what I was physically inspecting and evaluating. I liked that they brought me in to see it all for myself, before choosing a course of action. Several local machine shops, which have reseated heads for this shop before, came back with $1000+ quotes, which cost more than the new head by over 2x.
 
We are waiting on a 3rd party aftermarket valve to arrive and that is what's going in, so that is a good idea and what we decided to do.
 
Everything internal is stock on my bike, so I replaced the air filter with stock. I have a stock exhaust. No power commander or anything like that. I need reliability... the FJ makes enough natural power that I never would compromise its reliability for more power. And no, I have never revved my bike at redline like that, hitting the limiter. 
 
The FZ and FJ valve part numbers are the same and both have been out of stock. That was one of my first thoughts. Then I started calling internationally, checking the other parts distribution networks. Sometimes, I could get lucky and find the part in the Canadian dist network, but not in the US.
 
 
 

[skipperT]

Yes, I’d like to know this as well. 
Because the photos you attached of the head don’t show any abnormal wear in the seats (that I can tell in a photograph.)
 
If the sealing surface of the ex valves started to become “dished” and worn then ok, they’re toast.
 
If the valve stems have excessive play in guides or where the guide is pressed in the head then that’s another story. The head is junk at that point.
 
Did a machine shop check the head? Or just the tech? How long has he been a tech?
 
FWIW - lots of other companies make valves: Kibblewhite, vesrah, etc that are available from the aftermarket. If you are really in a bind, have your shop look through the big 3 distribution books (parts unlimited, western power sports, and tucker Rocky) and see if any of their warehouses have available stock.
 
FZ09’s use the same ex valve which might help you widen the search.
 
What kind of air filter have you used while owning the bike?
 
How many times have you been at a stoplight and pulled the “sportbike move” of holding the throttle at WOT in neutral and banging the engine off of red line?
 
Just getting more background information.
 
-Skip

Let me address each of these things individually to answer each point. 
The valves wiggled a lot in the guides. You could visibly see they wiggled a lot and, of course, feel it by hand too. The seats on the head were very deformed, compared to the new one. I will see if I can get pics of the new head to show here.
 
The tech is one of the shop owners. Three mechanics total looked at the situation and myself (mechanical engineer). Their conclusion made sense to me, based on what I was physically inspecting and evaluating. I liked that they brought me in to see it all for myself, before choosing a course of action. Several local machine shops, which have reseated heads for this shop before, came back with $1000+ quotes, which cost more than the new head by over 2x.
 
We are waiting on a 3rd party aftermarket valve to arrive and that is what's going in, so that is a good idea and what we decided to do.
 
Everything internal is stock on my bike, so I replaced the air filter with stock. I have a stock exhaust. No power commander or anything like that. I need reliability... the FJ makes enough natural power that I never would compromise its reliability for more power. And no, I have never revved my bike at redline like that, hitting the limiter. 
 
The FZ and FJ valve part numbers are the same and both have been out of stock. That was one of my first thoughts. Then I started calling internationally, checking the other parts distribution networks. Sometimes, I could get lucky and find the part in the Canadian dist network, but not in the US.
 
 

 
Thank you for the detailed reply, Vinnie.
You have my sympathies. It’s a bummer that the bike has broken down in this way, but it is not unheard of... it just sounds like you were the unlucky one.
 
Sounds like you are in good hands, best of luck with the repairs.
 
If it were me, I would have the valves checked after the rebuild after 600-1000 miles to be sure that things are still in spec after break-in.
 
-Skip

[skipperT]

I can see that only if the ex valve seats were cut from the factory the same as the intake valve seats.  
If they didn’t use a multi angle valve cutters, then I’d need to measure and use mechanics dye with the ex valve seats to really see how they are contacting the head. And if they’re sealing properly.
 
-S

Without a "new" or good looking head to compare with, its difficult to know whether the recessed valve seats are by design or accident. My suspicion is the recess is normal though.

 
Kind of what I was thinking, but based on his
new info it sounds like the shop was pretty thorough in their inspection.
 
Guess we’ll see after repairs are completed and she’s a runner again.
 
-S

[skipperT]

Vinnie, thanks for the info.
 
My only contention here is that you have assumed this to be a “potential flaw” with all of these engines based on your current circumstances. Titling this thread “Unofficial Known issue” based on your internet search and current situation is misleading.
 
How many happy FJ/fz/scr owners have NEVER posted on an Internet forum about how happy they are with their bike? And that they’ve NEVER had a problem with their engines even after (in the case of some of our members) 50-100,000 plus miles?
 
I would argue that this is just the one failure out of (made up number) 10,000 or whatever that would be considered “acceptable” by whomever makes these kinds of decisions.
 
Painting a bad picture and blasting Yamaha for the failure is misdirection, IMHO.
 
This could happen to any one of us at any time or mileage, regardless of brand or model. It’s just a bummer it happened, and that fate chose you.
 
That’s my counterpoint.
 
Again, sorry and good luck with the repairs.
 
-Skip

[koth442]

Thanks for the detailed response Vinnie. Bummer You got stuck with a lemon head. Best of luck with the repairs.

[Buggy Nate]

My sympathies as well but I am not a fan of the title either.
It is potentially lowering the value of everyone else’s bike because of a rare issue... I would also like to see some close ups of the exhaust valves and a comparison between new and old seats, as they just look like normal 45 degree cut seats, while it is odd to have two differing cutting styles on the seats it is not unheard of.
The very first R1’s had valve guide issues as well. But the were dealt with very hush hush. Why was the cost so ridiculous to reco the head? We have guys in Australia who aren’t that expensive to replace seats and guides? And they are normally daytime robbers!
Have you told Yamaha of the issue and asked them for some help on a major issue like this? What year is the bike?
This is another reason why I never wait until 40,000k’s to check valves, all my own bikes were checked new then every 20k. Most customers bikes were as well.

[vinnie]

My sympathies as well but I am not a fan of the title either. It is potentially lowering the value of everyone else’s bike because of a rare issue... I would also like to see some close ups of the exhaust valves and a comparison between new and old seats, as they just look like normal 45 degree cut seats, while it is odd to have two differing cutting styles on the seats it is not unheard of.
The very first R1’s had valve guide issues as well. But the were dealt with very hush hush. Why was the cost so ridiculous to reco the head? We have guys in Australia who aren’t that expensive to replace seats and guides? And they are normally daytime robbers!
Have you told Yamaha of the issue and asked them for some help on a major issue like this? What year is the bike?
This is another reason why I never wait until 40,000k’s to check valves, all my own bikes were checked new then every 20k. Most customers bikes were as well.

I already had the valves adjusted at the designated valve check, so I did not wait until 40k to check. Yamaha told me 16 months was out of my 12 month warranty and I couldn't get any coverage. No, I did not buy an extended warranty and yes, you are going to be right- I should have bought it.  
 
I'm not convinced this is a rare issue, considering Yamaha heard of what happened, has seen it before, and has been out of exhaust valves for months. I will get pictures up of the new seats on the new head and you can decide. I obviously won't convince many here, but I thought it was worth sharing.

[koth442]

We appreciate you sharing. We're going to defend our bikes 'till the bitter end cuz you know... they're our bikes and bikes are family haha.