E10 vs. Non-ethanol fuel

[2and3cylinders]

pure-gas.org

Search by state then town, even provides coordinates!

91+ resists detonation / preignition / knock better than lower obtain but offers no power advantage, actually 87 burns better.

E0, as stated doesn't have ethanol which absorbs H20 and is corrosive and bad for plastic / rubber.

Ethanol is a private interest boondoggle... such BS

I do not recommend running lower octane than stated but minimum 89 mid grade to save a few shekels but now days 11.5:1 CR is not that high, Aprilia, BMW, KTM have mills up at 13.5:1!

[keithu]

11 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

91+ resists detonation / preignition / knock better than lower obtain but offers no power advantage, actually 87 burns better.

I can attest that the FJ-09 runs fine on 87 (AKI) octane as I've had a few situations where it was the only grade available. The CP3's knock sensor seems to do its job. Now that I have an aux fuel tank this shouldn't be an issue for me anymore. 😎

[peteinpa]

I'm about 99% sure the FJ-09, FZ-09, Tracer etc. Does not have a knock sensor without dragging out my Service Manual.

[keithu]

21 minutes ago, peteinpa said:

I'm about 99% sure the FJ-09, FZ-09, Tracer etc. Does not have a knock sensor without dragging out my Service Manual.

I just checked my service manual and I think you're right. In any case, I noticed no discernible knocking when running 87 AKI fuel. 

[2and3cylinders]

Running 87 in cooler temperatures without traffic may not cause knocking but during elevated temperatures and in traffic and under high loads 87 may cause detonation

The question is is it worth the risk for a couple of bucks a tankful

I'm on that side, there have been cases where I have run a lower octane because I knew I was going to be filling up sooner with the proper octane at a better price

without doing Dyno runs with a CO and air fuel ratio reading in comparing readings with 87 vs 91 would be the only way to verify this and I don't have the motivation to do so

 

[keithu]

58 minutes ago, 2and3cylinders said:

Running 87 in cooler temperatures without traffic may not cause knocking but during elevated temperatures and in traffic and under high loads 87 may cause detonation

The times I've had to run 87 were always in eastern Oregon where the elevation is 4000'+ ASL, so that also reduces the likelihood of detonation. 

Quote

The question is is it worth the risk for a couple of bucks a tankful

I agree it's a false economy to choose 87 octane when 90+ is available. I've never burned 87 in my FJ by choice, it was always out of necessity. There are some incredible roads out west where it's 100-150 miles between gas stations, and when you get to the station they only have diesel or 85-87 octane regular. So you buy the regular and hope your engine doesn't melt.

[Wintersdark]

I've run mine with 87 and 91, and it was indistinguishable in use.  However, I'm at 3400'ASL, so there's that.  

But, the manual asks for 91, it's a high compression engine, and while the pump price for 91 is significantly higher than 87, the actual dollar cost difference in a tank of gas is trivial.  

 

For me, gas is currently [CAD] $1.039/l for regular, and $1.319/l for premium.  That's $18.70 for the tanks full 18l capacity of regular or $23.74 for a full tank of premium.  Things might not be great financially, but I'm perfectly willing to spend the $5 per full tank to avoid increased engine wear eventually causing catastrophic engine damage.  

It's even less of an expense on US road trips, what with you guys having such cheap gas.  

Edited October 13, 2020 by Wintersdark

[2and3cylinders]

Maybe mid grade 89 with an octane booster work be ok and cheaper...

TESTED: Royal Purple Max Boost Octane Booster - MotoIQ

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TESTED: Royal Purple Max Boost Octane Booster by Mike Kojima To be...

 

[keithu]

15 hours ago, Wintersdark said:

For me, gas is currently [CAD] $1.039/l for regular, and $1.319/l for premium.  That's $18.70 for the tanks full 18l capacity of regular or $23.74 for a full tank of premium.

Wow, that's a significant price difference. In the USA premium is usually 20-40 cents more per US gallon, which is 3.8 liters. So at my local Chevron where it's $2.33 USD for regular and $2.61 for premium, I'm looking at $11.18 vs $12.53. That is a trivial difference. 

[daboo]

Just to toss in another variable to your discussions on octane...when you put regular gas into the tank and evaluate performance...how much gas are you putting in?  Chances are, unless you're consistently putting in regular gas, you're diluting it with the premium fuel you put in from the last fillup.

I grew up with gas being 19 cents a gallon.  We thought 23 cents a gallon was outrageous and would drive across the street to the cheaper gas station.  Fast forward to recent years when gas prices have varied from over $4 a gallon, and down to $2.xx a gallon.  I quit worrying about price, simply because whether it is higher this week or lower, I've paid that amount before.

The Tracer GT has a MSRP of $13K.  You also paid sales tax, transportation and dealer prep probably.  So you have over $15K invested in this bike.  You added numerous mods to the bike for probably another thousand or more.  

And yet you're worried about saving a few cents per gallon by buying regular gas instead of premium?

Chris

Edited October 14, 2020 by daboo

[Dodgy Knees]

I'm of the belief,  as long as you "rag"  your bike enough, it don't matter which fuel you put in. 

[2and3cylinders]

43 minutes ago, Dodgy Knees said:

I'm of the relief,  as long as you "rag"  your bike enough, it don't matter which fuel you put in. 

Huh? Rag?

Sometimes around here premium could be a buck more and prices are usually higher but you go to a different town across the highway and maybe $0.10 less it's not till you get in God's country that you can find a cheaper and even then it's hit-and-miss but whenever I find a county that allows e0 91 I use it because it's better than this will I get locally

[daboo]

I'll buy the E0 91...but only if the price makes sense.  In some places this summer, I found it for the same price as the E10...but usually, it was another dollar or more for the non-ethanol.  There's no way it makes sense economically to pay that premium.  

Chris

[Wintersdark]

4 hours ago, daboo said:

The Tracer GT has a MSRP of $13K.  You also paid sales tax, transportation and dealer prep probably.  So you have over $15K invested in this bike.  You added numerous mods to the bike for probably another thousand or more.  

And yet you're worried about saving a few cents per gallon by buying regular gas instead of premium?

Chris

Exactly.  I mean, a dollar more at the pump is simply not going to break me.  If I'm so hard up that I'm looking to shave a single dollar when I get gas, then maybe the 13k bike is something I should reconsider

I feel people are funny about gas pricing in general.  I mean, sure, nobody wants to pay more, but even with my old pickup gas was simply not a major part of my monthly budget.  I put a lot of miles on my bike, but really, it's just not a lot of money relative to basically any other expense.  Like, I end up paying roughly $600 a year in tires alone. 

Not using the premium that's asked for by the engineers who made it can result in increased engine wear or catastrophic failure.  That's kind of a big deal, and definitely not somewhere I'll risk saving the price of a cup of coffee once per week.

Ethanol vs. non-ethanol is different, however.  Here anyways, there's no cost difference (it's just a matter of finding which stations have ethanol free premium, but it's all the same price) and also - with the potential exception of if you let your bike sit - there's no wear/damage issues with ethanol.  Ethanol free is (slightly) more power-dense, which makes it (here, where the sticker price is the same) slightly more cost effective in theory, though I've never seen a difference in mileage in practice.  

[Wintersdark]

4 hours ago, Dodgy Knees said:

I'm of the belief,  as long as you "rag"  your bike enough, it don't matter which fuel you put in. 

Unless you're putting regular into a high compression engine and having detonation, in which case you'll destroy your engine over time.  If there's no detonation, then yeah, it doesn't matter.