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Cycling the ABS Pump


kimmie

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Hi Everyone, 

I have to replace the brake fluid as part of the 80,000 km (~49,000 mile) service.

My hubby has a Tenere and they can cycle the ABS pump (flush the old fluid from the ABS pump). 

Can this be done with the Tracer - 2015 model?

Thanks in advance.

 

Kimmie......the lady who likes to take little detours :)

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5 hours ago, kimmie said:

Tenere and they can cycle the ABS pump (flush the old fluid from the ABS pump). 

Can this be done with the Tracer - 2015 model?

Not sure. Last winter I used a Mity-Vac to pull the fluid from the resivor to the caliper on the front and the same on the rear. Once the fluid runs close to clear for a couple of container fills on the Mity-Vac I stop. Took less than 1/2 a quart of Valvoline Synth DOT 4 fluid. Hope this helps.

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Ain't no fun when the rabbit gets the gun!

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5 hours ago, kimmie said:

Hi Everyone, 

I have to replace the brake fluid as part of the 80,000 km (~49,000 mile) service.

My hubby has a Tenere and they can cycle the ABS pump (flush the old fluid from the ABS pump). 

Can this be done with the Tracer - 2015 model?

Thanks in advance.

 

Hi Kim,

IIRC, it’s done in similar fashion: you have to get into DIAG mode for the ABS system and you can activate the pump briefly when you hold down the brake pedal and brake lever simultaneously while being in a certain channel number. the service manual will detail this info, as well as where the coupler is that you’ll need to access to connect the jumper lead.

This procedure is really for troubleshooting and component testing, I don’t believe Yamaha recommends activating the pump as a regular maintenance item when flushing the fluid. For example, H-D has the option as part of their dealer software and they require it to be done ONLY if the system was opened or if air got in. Meaning, not if you are simply flushing the system. Yamaha and Honda don’t provide this option.  

If you’re concerned, it might be easier to take the bike for a ride, and lock up the rear brake on a dirt road or parking area to get the pump to activate. You’ll also need to be confident enough to do the same for the front, as they use separate circuits within the abs pump.

-Skip

Edited by skipperT
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The service manual does call for performing the tests after any bleed. Thus, it's with the new fluid in the system, not for the purpose of flushing. 

Fwiw have replaced all lines, three fluid replacements, and all bleeds without using those tests nor any issues of old fluid retained in the pump. The system is self-tested each time the bike is turned on and you can put slight pressure on the levers and usually feel vibration. I usually cycle the ignition before putting everything back together after bleeding and make sure levels are unchanged and no codes thrown. And another check of levels after a short shake down ride.

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5 hours ago, chitown said:

The service manual does call for performing the tests after any bleed. Thus, it's with the new fluid in the system, not for the purpose of flushing. 

Fwiw have replaced all lines, three fluid replacements, and all bleeds without using those tests nor any issues of old fluid retained in the pump. The system is self-tested each time the bike is turned on and you can put slight pressure on the levers and usually feel vibration. I usually cycle the ignition before putting everything back together after bleeding and make sure levels are unchanged and no codes thrown. And another check of levels after a short shake down ride.

I did the same when I replaced my brake lines.  Just a normal bleed, and no issues.

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On 6/15/2019 at 9:30 AM, skipperT said:

Hi Kim,

IIRC, it’s done in similar fashion: you have to get into DIAG mode for the ABS system and you can activate the pump briefly when you hold down the brake pedal and brake lever simultaneously while being in a certain channel number. the service manual will detail this info, as well as where the coupler is that you’ll need to access to connect the jumper lead.

This procedure is really for troubleshooting and component testing, I don’t believe Yamaha recommends activating the pump as a regular maintenance item when flushing the fluid. For example, H-D has the option as part of their dealer software and they require it to be done ONLY if the system was opened or if air got in. Meaning, not if you are simply flushing the system. Yamaha and Honda don’t provide this option.  

If you’re concerned, it might be easier to take the bike for a ride, and lock up the rear brake on a dirt road or parking area to get the pump to activate. You’ll also need to be confident enough to do the same for the front, as they use separate circuits within the abs pump.

-Skip

Reprising an old thread here...and I've reviewed other pertinent threads.  Here goes.

I've always flushed & bled my 15s brakes like normal non-ABS brakes using a Mity-Vac and a clamp on the brake lever and bungy cord on the pedal overnight.  However, the operation of the front brake still varies with a soft pull rather frequently and other times it's firm and OK.

There's a certain route I take where despite my well sorted suspension, over a set of downhill stutter bumps the brake lever will pulsate; so I know the system is functioning.  I have not the nerve to wack on the brakes on dirt hard enough to activate the ABS pump though I have tried.

I could not find in the 15-16 shop manual other than on pages 4-65 ~ 4-68) where and how to activate the ABS pump without the Yamaha Diagnostic Tool (current part number is 90890-03273-00 for $536 !!!).

It's time for my annual flush & bleed and I know it's likely I'll end up with a soft lever occasionally (usually after start-up even if I pump the brakes before rolling out).  This is very disconcerting and dangerous.  Now I should mention I have Speigler lines, a 2014 R1 Brembo radial MC and 320 mm rotors; not that I think they have any bearing (I have no fluid or air leaks after testing after every fluid change).

If someone can provide the precise procedure for cycling the ABS pump without the tool (and grabbing the brakes on infirm soil) I'd greatly appreciate it!!!

https://www.partzilla.com/product/yamaha/90890-03231-00?msclkid=82def596f1091ad5234f90b0220f11a0

https://www.partzilla.com/product/yamaha/90890-03273-00

https://www.cmsnl.com/products/yamaha-diagnostic-toolai_9089003273/

 

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1 hour ago, 2and3cylinders said:

Reprising an old thread here...and I've reviewed other pertinent threads.  Here goes.

I've always flushed & bled my 15s brakes like normal non-ABS brakes using a Mity-Vac and a clamp on the brake lever and bungy cord on the pedal overnight.  However, the operation of the front brake still varies with a soft pull rather frequently and other times it's firm and OK.

 

I experience the same thing, some days the lever is firm and braking is very functional and other days I can pull the lever halfway to the bar before feeling any pressure and braking feels like I am merely gradually slowing down. 
 

I have replaced every part of the braking system except the rear master cylinder and rear caliper. ABS pump and front calipers replaced under warranty, 3 different master cylinders including 2 from an R1, oversized rotors, aggressive pads, braided lines, dealership bled with ABS cycling tool etc, I’m done throwing money at it, the brakes on my stock Honda feel and perform better. 

***2015 Candy Red FJ-09***

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Brian

I don't THINK I had this problem before I replaced the MC but with my memory and how long it's been...I know I bought my 15 FJ new in July 2016.

I'd changed pads before all the other mods and that helped but the feel of the stock brakes / pads (the latter being only GG) for me was wooden.  Hence the pads  and Speigler lines then a few months later the R1 MC, rotors and required associated caliper spacers.

Which 3 MC exactly did you try, and what are you running now, including rotors? Was any of your 2 R1 MC like mine, a 14 Brembo unit.

Were all 3 new (as mine was), and my first radial.  I'm not sure it's that much better it is over an axial with the brake problem we have.

But we need to figure it out!  Inexpensively.  But ABS pump bleeding with Yamahahaha tool / device did no good?

Have you tried cycling the pump "off-road"?

I wanted more feel thus lever travel but also better bite, which I got; just sometimes with too much lever travel.  Do you know the stock 15 caliper piston sizes, and the MC piston diameter, stroke and leverage ratio??  I'm not sure how to find the 14 R1 MC specs, maybe on the R! forum...

I just can't believe the caliper / MC mix is to blame.  I have noticed the right and left caliper bleed screws are different sizes.  What's up with that?  Really, my only gripe with my also fastest red is this brake issue.  Everything else I can except because you can't make a silk purse... or a S1000XR...

Do you like the stock rear GG pads (which oddly are no longer available from Yamaha)?  I have some HH EBC pads I'm scared to try; worried about locking up the rear because of my heavy forward weight balance (which is why I want to shorten my Razor R length to slow things down up front a bit).

 

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Just a thought, my 15 sometimes has more front lever travel than other times, not often but enough that I have noticed.

At first I thought it might have been air, as I removed the MC and held it at an angle so any bubble stuck at the banjo would escape up through the feed hole. It felt better after so I thought that was it, but have noticed it again since.

If you're using MC that has more travel, this might be why it goes so far as opposed to the stock one when this strange thing happens.

I have EBC HH pads and stopping is excellent, even better when hot.

On a very spirited ride in the Snowy Mountains last year I was working the brakes very hard going into corners on a fully loaded bike.

They were good but not superb, then I felt a big crack through the lever, I stopped to check because it felt like a disk had cracked. Couldn't find anything but the brakes have been fantastic since.

No idea what caused this, but it has never happened again.

I wonder if it was a stuck piston?

Edited by OZVFR
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1 hour ago, 2and3cylinders said:

Brian

I don't THINK I had this problem before I replaced the MC but with my memory and how long it's been...I know I bought my 15 FJ new in July 2016.

I'd changed pads before all the other mods and that helped but the feel of the stock brakes / pads (the latter being only GG) for me was wooden.  Hence the pads  and Speigler lines then a few months later the R1 MC, rotors and required associated caliper spacers.

Which 3 MC exactly did you try, and what are you running now, including rotors? Was any of your 2 R1 MC like mine, a 14 Brembo unit.

Were all 3 new (as mine was), and my first radial.  I'm not sure it's that much better it is over an axial with the brake problem we have.

But we need to figure it out!  Inexpensively.  But ABS pump bleeding with Yamahahaha tool / device did no good?

Have you tried cycling the pump "off-road"?

I wanted more feel thus lever travel but also better bite, which I got; just sometimes with too much lever travel.  Do you know the stock 15 caliper piston sizes, and the MC piston diameter, stroke and leverage ratio??  I'm not sure how to find the 14 R1 MC specs, maybe on the R! forum...

I just can't believe the caliper / MC mix is to blame.  I have noticed the right and left caliper bleed screws are different sizes.  What's up with that?  Really, my only gripe with my also fastest red is this brake issue.  Everything else I can except because you can't make a silk purse... or a S1000XR...

Do you like the stock rear GG pads (which oddly are no longer available from Yamaha)?  I have some HH EBC pads I'm scared to try; worried about locking up the rear because of my heavy forward weight balance (which is why I want to shorten my Razor R length to slow things down up front a bit).

 

I have tried stock front MC, a brand new R1 MC and a used R1 MC from my previous FZ1 (both have a Brembo stamp) which also had a rebuild kit installed, I believe both were '04 R1 MC's, (honestly I don't remember at this point).  It worked great on my FZ1 but I am back to using the stock MC.  All 3 MC's have had the same issues, some days they feel great, other days the lever has a ton of travel.

For pads I have used the stock GG pads, Vesrah RJL and EBC HH pads, the EBC pads felt the best of the 3.

On the rear I have used stock pads and EBC HH pads and have the same issue, some days the pedal is firm and will stop decently but other days I get a lot of pedal travel and very little braking.

As far as cycling the ABS pump, yes it isn't difficult, you can ride through gravel or grass at 5mph and grab the lever hard and it will actuate the ABS.  I have done that a few times and then done a quick bleed to check for bubbles but even after having the dealer do a bleed with their ABS tool, I still experienced the same good days and bad days with brake feel.

***2015 Candy Red FJ-09***

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try this: @2and3cylinders bleed your brakes in the normal fashion that you do.

When finished however - connect your bleeder line to the bleed fitting on the R1 front master cylinder. MANUALLY bleed from that fitting 2-4 times using the ole “pull and hold” technique pumping pressure back up several times with the lever and then open and close the bleeder while holding in the old school way, as opposed to using a suction device on that particular bleed fitting. See if that gives you a better lever “feel”. 

I’ve had good luck with this technique on some “hard to bleed” systems to get that last tiny bit of air out that can be problematic. 

@betoney sorry to hear you’ve had varying degrees of satisfaction and irregular feel from your brake system for some time. You could try the same thing I suggested to 2and3 if you still have an aftermarket front master cylinder with a bleed fitting. 

If you’re back to a stock m.cyl in the front then all I could suggest would be to perform a manual bleed in the old school way at each brake caliper after using a bleeding device or just as an experiment on your own (save another trip to the shop). I’d shoot for 3-10 cycles of the pull-pull-pull and hold then open/close technique at each caliper keeping an eye on your fluid level. Sometimes the old manual bleed technique at the end of a flush will make a difference - other times it won’t. 

Yamaha isn’t alone in this - I’ve run into varying amts of inconsistency on ‘Wings over the years as well. Even if you manually bleed them at the end of a flush procedure (as I’ve attempted to describe above) they still need a second quick press/stab at the pedal/lever to get a consistent feel without a tad bit of “sponginess” on that initial application. 

Frustrating. But sometimes it eases the mind to know it’s not just your bike.  Blame the ABS system manufacturer.

HTH,

-Skip

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Brian

I have EBC HH pads in front, and as I indicated, the OEM GG rear pads still in.

Are the rear EBC HH grabby or tend to lock-up?

I'm not sure if the rear has the "fade" issue like the front because I rarely use it hard, mainly to settle the rear before turn-in, and trail braking.

Skip, my front is rock solid 85%+ of the time, and the 15% clears up after a quick pull and a half of the lever.  When it fades it gives another 1/2"+ of travel but usually immediately pumps to hard.

I have vacuumed from the MC bleeder but not manually 

I think it's air in the front half the ABS pump, so I'll try another vacuum suck. I'll also try off roading...

And post up again when I can add some eperacle data... 🤬

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4 hours ago, skipperT said:

try this: @2and3cylinders bleed your brakes in the normal fashion that you do.

When finished however - connect your bleeder line to the bleed fitting on the R1 front master cylinder. MANUALLY bleed from that fitting 2-4 times using the ole “pull and hold” technique pumping pressure back up several times with the lever and then open and close the bleeder while holding in the old school way, as opposed to using a suction device on that particular bleed fitting. See if that gives you a better lever “feel”. 

I’ve had good luck with this technique on some “hard to bleed” systems to get that last tiny bit of air out that can be problematic. 

@betoney sorry to hear you’ve had varying degrees of satisfaction and irregular feel from your brake system for some time. You could try the same thing I suggested to 2and3 if you still have an aftermarket front master cylinder with a bleed fitting. 

If you’re back to a stock m.cyl in the front then all I could suggest would be to perform a manual bleed in the old school way at each brake caliper after using a bleeding device or just as an experiment on your own (save another trip to the shop). I’d shoot for 3-10 cycles of the pull-pull-pull and hold then open/close technique at each caliper keeping an eye on your fluid level. Sometimes the old manual bleed technique at the end of a flush will make a difference - other times it won’t. 

Yamaha isn’t alone in this - I’ve run into varying amts of inconsistency on ‘Wings over the years as well. Even if you manually bleed them at the end of a flush procedure (as I’ve attempted to describe above) they still need a second quick press/stab at the pedal/lever to get a consistent feel without a tad bit of “sponginess” on that initial application. 

Frustrating. But sometimes it eases the mind to know it’s not just your bike.  Blame the ABS system manufacturer.

HTH,

-Skip

FWIW - Before my last bleed I was experiencing a less than satisfactory front brake feel similar to what has been described - OK but not awe inspiring.  However, the last one I did was a similar technique to what has been described by the skipper and now have a front brake lever that is consistent and much firmer than before.  Now it only needs minimal squeeze to get the brakes actuating compared to 'before' and is consistent with no discernable fade.

I did spend a bit of time on it though to ensure every micro bubble of air was out.  First did the usual suck and top up to get a coarse flush and then took my time to do the pump and bleed, wait, pump and bleed, wait etc.  After several of those I used a cable tie to keep the squeeze on between the bleed cycle.  And when I say wait it was for at least and hour or more every time.  Even waited overnight after the initial process with the cable tie on and repeated the whole pump and bleed process the next day.

Don't know if that was the trick but it was certainly a noticable difference at the lever.  So much so that initially I thought I'd stuffed something up it was so firm.  That was done in August 2022 and still all good to this day.

HTH

P.S. I didn't go out and purposely actuate the ABS on that bleed occasion either even though it has been activated since, both front and back, while on the road.

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