Counter steering

[aussietracer]

Re: pushing on bars, I personally use a mixture of pushing and pulling, feels more confident on the front.
As for braking and having no affect on cornering, trailing the rear to load the shock up and blipping the front to help flick it over in fast chicanes must be a new approach to riding to some.

[zvez]

Here's an exc. video from cambridge university about the physics of turning and countersteering:
 

[zvez]

 
Trail braking isn't really  used in average daily riding. Good for track and mountain twisties.

Re: pushing on bars, I personally use a mixture of pushing and pulling, feels more confident on the front. As for braking and having no affect on cornering, trailing the rear to load the shock up and blipping the front to help flick it over in fast chicanes must be a new approach to riding to some.

 

[jimf]

Re: pushing on bars, I personally use a mixture of pushing and pulling, feels more confident on the front. As for braking and having no affect on cornering, trailing the rear to load the shock up and blipping the front to help flick it over in fast chicanes must be a new approach to riding to some.

I'll do the same thing, particularly at higher speeds where turning is more difficult, but for something like canyon carving I like to get down next to the tank and give it a good push.  My Daytona loves it when you do that.  Everything just feels better. 
With braking, I too find that a little brake in the rear helps settle the suspension, or even just engine braking.  I never thought about blipping the front to flop a chicane, but then again I'm not a racer.  I'd always considered that kind of braking in the context of making the bike run wide when it stood up, which is to say that I didn't really want to do that :-).  So, thanks for the tip!
 
 

[aussietracer]

I use trail braking in roundabouts, but yes you're correct its predominantly used in twisties. 
 

Trail braking isn't really  used in average daily riding. Good for track and mountain twisties.

Re: pushing on bars, I personally use a mixture of pushing and pulling, feels more confident on the front. As for braking and having no affect on cornering, trailing the rear to load the shock up and blipping the front to help flick it over in fast chicanes must be a new approach to riding to some.

[bmac]

It is good to see that most folks on this site have a good grasp of counter steering and understand what actually works. Only one lost soul is not too bad.
 
There will always be some folks that insist the earth is flat no matter what evidence to the contrary is presented.

[bmac]

The myth of countersteering would require that your bike turned from the front wheel, and it doesnt, it turns from the rear, thats why you open the throttle before the apex of a corner, to transfer the load to the rear tire, and make the bike "turn back" and finish the corner.  
Will

I love the internet and some of the stuff that folks come up with. The quote above has to one of dumbest things I have read in a long time among plenty of dumb stuff.  
The front wheel doesn't turn a bike, really?? By using that logic you could never turn while going at a steady pace or slowing down. 

[zvez]

I think what throws a lot of people off about countersteering is how really small the input you give thru the bars is being pushing on the inside of a turn or pulling to change input slightly. At low speeds most cyclists turn the wheel in the direction of the turn, but you can actually countersteer pretty easily at even parking lot speeds.
 
 

[jimf]

I think what throws a lot of people off about countersteering is how really small the input you give thru the bars is being pushing on the inside of a turn or pulling to change input slightly. At low speeds most cyclists turn the wheel in the direction of the turn, but you can actually countersteer pretty easily at even parking lot speeds. 

I'm not convinced bicyclists turn the wheel in that direction either, although I am sure they *think* they do.  You know how to find out?  Try riding an adult tricycle.  Most bicyclists will have a hard time controlling it for the first few minutes.  They'll want to turn left but weirdly the bike will go right, often to the point of crashing. 
Until I learned about countersteering I couldn't understand how that happened.  It was freaky trying to ride those things.  I mean, I did this as a three year old -- what could I be doing wrong?
 
I think what's going on is most bicyclists think that they lean to turn the bike, but what's really happening is they're weighting the handlebar as they lean their weight, causing it to countersteer.  Since it takes very little pressure to do this they don't even know it's happening.
 
I put myself in the "they" group, I always thought I leaned the bike too.  Once I learned to use countersteering on my first motorcycle I suddenly got way, way better at controlling the mountain bike ... now I understood what I was doing and why it worked.  And I knew what I was doing wrong on the tricycle, too, although I still have to consciously think about it.

[mrmoto]

First, I am not expert rider.
 
However I have been able to ride a lot of miles in my lifetime. Basically, like many here, I can ride a motorcycle.
 
If you are you like me, you may want to check out a book by Lee Parks called, Total Control; High Performance Street Riding Techniques.
 
It's very thorough and at the same time reminds of the basics. For example, Lee states that motorcycle riding is traction control.
 
From that simple statement he expands into areas that an experienced rider can relate to.
(Really like how he discusses fear.)
And Lee talks about counter steering...better than any of the posts here.
 
I am enjoying and benefiting so much from the book that I will probably take one of his classes.
 
BTW- The Book on Kindle is only $3.99!
 
 

[Guest eatpasta]

The myth of countersteering would require that your bike turned from the front wheel, and it doesnt, it turns from the rear, thats why you open the throttle before the apex of a corner, to transfer the load to the rear tire, and make the bike "turn back" and finish the corner.  
Will

I love the internet and some of the stuff that folks come up with. The quote above has to one of dumbest things I have read in a long time among plenty of dumb stuff.  
The front wheel doesn't turn a bike, really?? By using that logic you could never turn while going at a steady pace or slowing down. 

After a few years of desert racing I have to admit that some of turning a motorcycle is done with the rear tire - especially on something like a 650R which was my first race bike.  Anyone really fast on a sportbike will tell you that as well but for mere mortals like us, on the street, steering with the back tire doesnt mean a whole lot.
 

[bmac]

We are talking about STREET bikes and riding on the street, right?
 
Telling someone that a motorcycle doesn't turn with the front wheel is like telling someone the the brakes don't slow the motorcycle down and that only effective way to stop a motorcycle is to find a brick wall. Sure it works but there are better ways to get it done, especially on the street.

[b12ty]

Here is a perfect demonstration of counter-steering. Using only a push on the right bar to turn right. This is what I consciously do.
 
[video src=https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VFBzLpGlRDo]
 
Ty
 
 

[oldfrt]

Racers can argue and explain racing technique, but gyroscopic precession, not so much. I couldn't find the video that would demonstrate this exactly like I wanted, but here's something close.

 
Notice that when the wheel is tilted to the left the chair/person rotates to the left. So what would happen if instead of the person turning the spinning wheel to the horizontal, he kept it vertical and tried to turn it in a direction, say left. Here's what would happen, he pushes the handle to the left,  the gyroscopic precession would tilt the wheel to the left and the tilting would rotate the chair/person to the left. This is what happens when you countersteer.
 
Countersteering only works when the front wheel has sufficient angular momentum.
 
 

[jimf]

Countersteering only works when the front wheel has sufficient angular momentum.
 

Not so.  While precession is an aid to turning the motorcycle, the man actor is friction between the tire and road.  You're steering the bike out from under its CoG.  That works at any speed. 
The fact is that two-wheeler dynamics are very complicated.  Wheel track, tire deformation (they become cones), gyroscopic precession, and centripetal force are all in play.  There's no one piece of that that is responsible for steering, and as luck would have it they all reinforce one another.