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K-Tech suspension (Long)


skipperT

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Hey all, hope everyone is doing ok and getting some safe "social distance" riding miles/km under their belt. I've been doing my part..👍

Apologies in advance, I may ramble here a bit as some of this stuff has been collecting in my head for awhile, and I need to put it out there. 

Background: Pulled the trigger over Black Friday for K-tech Razor R and 20IDS cartridges for my 2015 FJ09. Found a fairly good deal and suspension is a purchase I've been planning for awhile (I see you cheering over there, @betoney). Install was straight forward for the most part, which I'll get to momentarily. I weigh 160-165lbs wet (no gear) so ordered the shock for a 160-195 lb rider, and I've verified the spring to be a 0.95, which I believe is correct as I can get a Total sag number approaching 55mm when preload is minimized.  I've been playing around with Comp and Reb settings on the rear and haven't really settled on anything that makes me say "wow this bike is riding great".

So for those of you with a Razor-R that are <190 lbs what C & R shock settings have you found "comfortable"? 

The front: I tore the forks down and installed the carts myself. Total R&R with new bushings installed as well. I settled on Bel-ray 5w (cSt at 40 was around 14-16) in the Rebound fork and I ordered in a Spectro Light oil for the Compression side (cSt around 9 or 10, I don't have either bottle in front of me so going off memory here...) and assembled the forks with 7.5 nm springs from K-Tech. Head scratching moment when installing the carts - K-tech instructions said to install the spacer BELOW the spring, which I find a bit strange, and didn't catch until I had already assembled 1 fork and was on the 2nd.... so corrected the mistake I made on the 1st fork and also was surprised that the spacer was long enough to put the spring under a fair amt of preload on re-assembly. So that's how I installed the carts, maybe someone who has done the job or watched their installer can comment? Should that spacer be trimmed depending on spring length/preload?

I can't really get a sag number that I'm happy with on the front. I started with 1 turn of preload, and Total sag was only 10-55mm with no Free sag. I currently have the preload all the way out, and Total sag is 26-28mm. Measured Free sag (no rider) comes in at 20mm.  I think I need a lighter spring, and/or cut that preload spacer so that it's shorter? Thoughts?

I've been researching a lighter spring and want to order one.  Come to find out that K-tech now only offers a 8.0 nm spring as the lightest available. Revzilla doesn't even list the p/n that I purchased anymore, and their listings prompted me to start scouring K-tech's, Motostarz, etc websites trying to find an answer...

Anyone know what is up with that??? Did K-tech change the valving on the cartridges maybe and because of that only offers higher rate springs to go with the IDS carts? Times like this that I wish Pattonme was still around to ask. Anyone know if I can order a set of Racetech springs and slap those in? other options?

In summary and I can't believe I'm going to say this, but ATM and truth be told I'm a bit bummed about pulling the trigger on this upgrade. Forgot to mention I've ridden almost 1000km since install and it should be broken in by now. If I had access to a pro suspension shop locally I'd pay someone to look at this with me in person, but that's just not an option. I DO have access to a lot of collective knowledge about these types of things(suspension), but no one has been in this specific situation. Most of these guys "send their stuff out".  I've also watched some Dave Moss videos and the Suspension for Mortals clips that someone posted about. I own the RaceTech suspension bible but honestly as many times as I try to read, it just gets just a bit too technical for my head to fully absorb. I've scoured this forum and the FZ-09 forum for info.  I've tried a "little at a time" adjustments in either direction on multiple rides from both the recommended starting settings that K-tech provided and also starting from settings based on my own fiddling and understanding from all these set-up tips and video watching and research, but I just can't seem to dial this in yet. The bike just isn't absorbing bumps as comfortably as I expected.

Thanks for reading/listening,

-Skip

 

 

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20 minutes ago, skipperT said:

Pulled the trigger over Black Friday for K-tech Razor R and 20IDS cartridges for my 2015 FJ09. Found a fairly good deal and suspension is a purchase I've been planning for awhile (I see you cheering over there, @betoney).

The bike just isn't absorbing bumps as comfortably as I expected.

Three cheers for upgrading the suspension but sorry to hear that you cant get it dialed in. 

Are you feeling the lack of bump absorption on both the front and rear?  how far have you backed off the compression from fully closed?  I have found most aftermarket suspension to be fairly responsive to adjustments, 2-3 clicks should be noticeable.  In your case, try a bigger adjustment, like -5 clicks counter clockwise to see if that makes enough of a difference and then you can fine tune with 1-2 clicks. 

I would run the same stretch of road back and forth adjusting only either the shock or fork each time.  DO NOT try making a bunch of adjustments at once and try and make sense of it, keep a pocket notebook noting how many clicks each time.

***2015 Candy Red FJ-09***

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4 hours ago, skipperT said:

So for those of you with a Razor-R that are <190 lbs what C & R shock settings have you found "comfortable"?

FWIW and from memory, my settings for the K-Tech Razor-R were 39mm Sag, Rebound set to around half way at 14-16 clicks out (range 0-32) and compression to around 18 clicks out (range 0-28).

This gives me a firmish ride.

My weight: - 85Kgs/187lbs in gear.

Spring is 95N.

Can't help you with the front as I've got Andreani Shocks.

Again FWIW I've set my bike up for around 30% SAG front and back which equates to around 41mm front and 39mm rear.

Don't know if any of that has helped you or not but good luck.

 

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This is what Wordsmith's initial settings were when his suspension was set up professionally: -

Quote

 

Rear shock upgrade:

  • compression - 16 clicks out
  • rebound - 8 clicks out
  • rider sag 51mm. 

 

I know he had his suspension setup reworked after a little while to make it plusher so don't know what the final figures were.

He is the same weight as me BTW - 187lbs in gear.

EDIT:  Here's the post where he had the changes done FWIW -

 

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It reads as if the fork install has something wrong @skipperT and that is hiding the benefit of the new shock. It might be worth messaging @piotrek as he has done this type of fork tear-down before. I haven’t seen him posting lately though so he may still be in Canadian hibernation.

Red 2015 Tracer, UK spec (well, it was until I started messing with it...)

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I had a set if Ktech IDS 20s for a month or so... @pattonme sent them to me when he was working in a solution to my suspension.  I dont remember the install being anything too tricky.  No issues setting sag.  I weighed 175lbs and I had a .85 and a. 90 spring for a total .875  rate in the front.

What I do remember is that I had the same question come up with the spacer (under or over the spring)... Matt told me it would make no difference in the performance of the suspension and that the reason they recommend the spacer under the spring is for track days so that if you wanted to swap out springs it could be done with minimal disassembly.  

I honestly haven't looked into it myself but I tend to believe what Matt tells me...

 

'15 FJ-09 w/ lots of extras...

Fayetteville, GA, USA

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10 hours ago, betoney said:

Three cheers for upgrading the suspension but sorry to hear that you cant get it dialed in. 

Are you feeling the lack of bump absorption on both the front and rear?  how far have you backed off the compression from fully closed?  I have found most aftermarket suspension to be fairly responsive to adjustments, 2-3 clicks should be noticeable.  In your case, try a bigger adjustment, like -5 clicks counter clockwise to see if that makes enough of a difference and then you can fine tune with 1-2 clicks. 

I would run the same stretch of road back and forth adjusting only either the shock or fork each time.  DO NOT try making a bunch of adjustments at once and try and make sense of it, keep a pocket notebook noting how many clicks each time.

I have - on one of the rides for example, I started about 15 clicks out and worked my way in from there 1-2 clicks at a time on the ride, and checked the setting when I got home and found the shock at 6-8 clicks out, (rebound at 22) On a different ride, I set it in the garage utilizing video methods and wound up close to those numbers. Completed the ride making slight adjustments again. Still felt a bit jarring. 

The front I find very hard to separate from the back, but it’s definitely more jarring than the rear.

i typically ride the same route getting out of town, but haven’t spent time going over that stretch over and over in one setting, while making a slight adjustment - will take time to do that.

-Skip 

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7 hours ago, dazzler24 said:

This is what Wordsmith's initial settings were when his suspension was set up professionally: -

I know he had his suspension setup reworked after a little while to make it plusher so don't know what the final figures were.

He is the same weight as me BTW - 187lbs in gear.

EDIT:  Here's the post where he had the changes done FWIW -

 

Thanks for the links - I DID find that post where his tech tore back into the springs in the front and installed a softer set (8.5 nm IIRC). 
that may be what got me going on this path. 

thanks for the settings info, it makes sense based on the weight differences. 
-Skip

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7 hours ago, BBB said:

It reads as if the fork install has something wrong @skipperT and that is hiding the benefit of the new shock. It might be worth messaging @piotrek as he has done this type of fork tear-down before. I haven’t seen him posting lately though so he may still be in Canadian hibernation.

that’s how I feel too, really need to find a softer spring. 

Good info, I’m west coast so out of weather hibernation already - just under Covid distancing orders. Thanks for tagging him, we’ll see if he chimes in. 
-Skip

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1 hour ago, duhs10 said:

I had a set if Ktech IDS 20s for a month or so... @pattonme sent them to me when he was working in a solution to my suspension.  I dont remember the install being anything too tricky.  No issues setting sag.  I weighed 175lbs and I had a .85 and a. 90 spring for a total .875  rate in the front.

What I do remember is that I had the same question come up with the spacer (under or over the spring)... Matt told me it would make no difference in the performance of the suspension and that the reason they recommend the spacer under the spring is for track days so that if you wanted to swap out springs it could be done with minimal disassembly.  

I honestly haven't looked into it myself but I tend to believe what Matt tells me...

 

That was my assumption as well - because during a track day you could remove the fork caps withdraw the spring without the need for any type of tool as the spacer wouldn’t be sitting on top of the spring. 
great info Duhs10, thanks. Was Matt revalving Andriannis for you or something like that?

-Skip

 

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7 hours ago, dazzler24 said:

FWIW and from memory, my settings for the K-Tech Razor-R were 39mm Sag, Rebound set to around half way at 14-16 clicks out (range 0-32) and compression to around 18 clicks out (range 0-28).

This gives me a firmish ride.

My weight: - 85Kgs/187lbs in gear.

Spring is 95N.

Can't help you with the front as I've got Andreani Shocks.

Again FWIW I've set my bike up for around 30% SAG front and back which equates to around 41mm front and 39mm rear.

Don't know if any of that has helped you or not but good luck.

 

Thanks for the numbers, Daz. 
I’m thinking I really need to get a softer spring in the front. Just don’t know who to order from up here in Canada. 
-S

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8 hours ago, dazzler24 said:

FWIW and from memory, my settings for the K-Tech Razor-R were 39mm Sag, Rebound set to around half way at 14-16 clicks out (range 0-32) and compression to around 18 clicks out (range 0-28).

This gives me a firmish ride.

Knowing the range - Reb 0-32 and Comp 0-28 is good info to have, it looks like you have yours set about halfway and still gives a 'firmish' ride.  @skipperT that might be something to consider, K-Tech might have more restrictive valving and needs to be opened more than usual to lessen the damping effect. 

Making only one setting at a time, start with the compression circuit on the shock.  Turn the adjuster fully closed to 0 - clockwise.  Open it up -counter clockwise- 25 clicks and ride it and see if it is too plush for you and then you could add +5 (to 20) clicks out to feel the difference.  If you have your compression circuit almost fully open and it is still harsh then you might need to consider having them re-do the shim stack valving.

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***2015 Candy Red FJ-09***

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@skipperT - Using the Sonic Springs Calculator and the Race Tech Calculator it sounds like 0.85kg/mm 'should' be the correct fork springs for your weight.  Race Tech offers 0.80kg/mm as their lightest spring.

Race Tech lists the stock fork spring rate as 0.70kg/mm, I don't know if they are progressive or straight rate (you can tell by looking at them) but if they are straight rate, you could put the light spring on the compression leg... just thinking out loud here...

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***2015 Candy Red FJ-09***

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12 hours ago, skipperT said:

That was my assumption as well - because during a track day you could remove the fork caps withdraw the spring without the need for any type of tool as the spacer wouldn’t be sitting on top of the spring. 
great info Duhs10, thanks. Was Matt revalving Andriannis for you or something like that?

-Skip

 

It was a long process... I wasn't happy with the first iteration of his intermediate forks. Matt, being the stand up guy that he is, sent me the Ktechs while he re-worked the custom forks to give me a little softer compression with the option to keep the Ktech if I like them.  I did like the Ktech when I was out riding like a hooligan, but 90% of my riding is commuting and I found them to be a bit harsh on surface streets at lower speeds (45mph ish) so I abused them until Matt was finished and sent them back when the custom job was done.

'15 FJ-09 w/ lots of extras...

Fayetteville, GA, USA

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17 minutes ago, duhs10 said:

It was a long process... I wasn't happy with the first iteration of his intermediate forks. Matt, being the stand up guy that he is, sent me the Ktechs while he re-worked the custom forks to give me a little softer compression with the option to keep the Ktech if I like them.  I did like the Ktech when I was out riding like a hooligan, but 90% of my riding is commuting and I found them to be a bit harsh on surface streets at lower speeds (45mph ish) so I abused them until Matt was finished and sent them back when the custom job was done.

Were you able to  dial out some of the compression damping? or were they harsh regardless?  I'm curious if K-Tech components are focused more for sport riding?

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***2015 Candy Red FJ-09***

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