Advice Needed - Low idle/stalling

[angrygirafe]

@skipperT, thank you for the list! I have replaced the ETV fuse, both with a spare, and one from the turn signals that are working. No luck there. 
 

I’ll start double checking through the others tomorrow; about to go visit some family for the evening. I really appreciate the suggestions though. I figure it’s got to be something I did since I rode it home from the shop, and I’ve been pulling my hair out trying to figure out what. 

[angrygirafe]

23 hours ago, skipperT said:

No Problem... Sorry, I had to go and consult the service manual:

on page 8-70 (my 2015-2016 book anyway) is a box with a description of fault code 60: YCC-T malfunction. Things to check are listed there, but if it were me - I'd head straight to the 7.5A fuse under the seat, labeled ETV or Electronic Throttle Valve. I'd expect it to be blown, replace and you should be all set. Even if it doesn't look blown, swap in another and report back.

EDIT: looks based on this thread that you have already done that... Still I would replace that 7.5A fuse with another to be sure.

Next, did you loosen and remove the APS sensor from the throttle body? If so check that it's installed correctly. 

Check to make sure the connectors aren't reversed (TPS->APS connector and APS -> TPS connector.

On that note - the plugs for the Coil Packs are THE SAME as the plug for the YCC-T motor, I think it would be difficult to mix up on this engine, but verify.

DIAG mode can help too: use the same channels as adjusting TPS/APS settings and see if there are any values (DIAG channel 1, 13, 14, and 15) when the throttle is rotated. Silly question, but are the cables connected properly? do they rotate the APS the proper direction (may not be possible to mix up but still...

If nothing above helps, it will be down to tracing wires: at the 4P, 1 is power, 1 ground, and the other 2 are output voltages FROM the sensor TO the ECM. In theory you should have 12v on 1 wire each at the 4P connector of the TPS/APS and continuity to ground on 1 wire with key on.

If we need to get more detailed I'll need to do more research and get back to you...

If you need more help, post back too.

HTH, Skip

Okie dokie, I got some data.

 

Since you're suspicious of the ETV fuse, I looked a little farther into it. The fuse IS fine, and if you're on the left side of the bike, the RIGHT terminal of the fuse block for that fuse has 13V to ground, key on or off. The left side has nothing to positive or ground, key on or off, and so not surprisingly, there's not measurement across the fuse terminals. I'm tempted to stick a piece of 14ga wire between the terminals, but since there's problems, that idea also scares me.

The DIAG mode was interesting. I've never checked 1 or 13 before, so I'm not sure if those are supposed to change.

DIAG MODE	Throttle Closed	Throttle Open
DIAG1	16	16
DIAG13	17	17
DIAG14	14	98
DIAG15	13	97

 

I checked the Connector and Plug on the APS sensor, and measure values from the Plug to ground with the key on and off, with the plug oriented as the picture shows, and numbering the slots 1-4 starting from the left. Slot 1 had 12V to (+), Slot 2 had continuity to ground, and Slots 3 and 4 each had 5V to ground with the key on.

I checked the connections as best I could, but as I have never personally removed the air box until today, it's unlikely I screwed up any connections underneath it. From what I could tell, the way the cables are taped to together they can't reach the wrong terminal, at least, not without another cable being unable to reach anything. And since I did ride the bike home, I'm guessing none of these are wrong. 

 

Anything else I should be looking at in here? Or is that DIAG1 and DIAG13 seem wonky since there's no change with throttle position?

 

Thanks

[skipperT]

@angrygirafe great stuff, now we’re rolling. 
 

re fuse box, what you describe is what I’d expect: one connector in the box provides either switched or constant 12v and the terminal opposite (bridged by the fuse) would be 0v (until a good fuse is connected) thereby  providing 12v to the circuit. Make sense?

re: DIAG mode, there’s your problem or at least WHY you have a code 60: channel 1 and 13 should move similarly to channels 14 and 15. 

What other accessories are installed on your bike? Anything else different from stock? I need some more background info. what exactly was removed or changed since the bike ran last when you brought it home from the 2nd shop?

-Skip

[angrygirafe]

18 minutes ago, skipperT said:

@angrygirafe great stuff, now we’re rolling. 
 

re fuse box, what you describe is what I’d expect: one connector in the box provides either switched or constant 12v and the terminal opposite (bridged by the fuse) would be 0v (until a good fuse is connected) thereby  providing 12v to the circuit. Make sense?

re: DIAG mode, there’s your problem or at least WHY you have a code 60: channel 1 and 13 should move similarly to channels 14 and 15. 

What other accessories are installed on your bike? Anything else different from stock? I need some more background info. what exactly was removed or changed since the bike ran last when you brought it home from the 2nd shop?

-Skip

Fuses totally make sense. I started measuring across terminals until realizing some wouldn’t necessarily have a path to ground unless controls were being manipulated so started checking them to ground on the battery. 
 

The kicker is there isn’t anything I’ve done to the bike aside from the teardown. It’s had the weak idle since the first shop in November, but I think we’re safe assuming busted vac cap is the culprit there. 
 

Things I’ve unplugged since having it home are the battery, front turn signals, fuel pump, ECU, and every fuse. Today I added the APS sensor to that. Everything has been plugged back in for diagnostics or start attempts. New battery currently installed. 
 

I have a few electrical and fueling mods, but nothings in the last few years. APS sensor position adjustment I think was 2017. Yamaha heated handgrips installed 2017 I think. Second Yamaha branded 12v accessory outlet in 2017. ECU flash (2WDW), and charcoal canister delete was summer 2018.  At the same time I installed a tail tidy, new brake light with integrated turn signals and flush mount front led signals, all from Motodynamic, including a flasher relay. Everything else is cosmetic or bodywork related like windscreen, hand guards, luggage, etc. 
 
A lead for a battery tender junior has been on it for years, but not used religiously. It’s old enough the tender may be toast, and I haven’t connected the leads back to the bike with the new battery installed. 
 

The ECU connectors are kind of a pain. Not much slack in the cable. Could I have pulled a wire loose disconnecting those you think?

[skipperT]

4 hours ago, angrygirafe said:

1- The kicker is there isn’t anything I’ve done to the bike aside from the teardown. It’s had the weak idle since the first shop in November, but I think we’re safe assuming busted vac cap is the culprit there. 

*SNIP*

2- The ECU connectors are kind of a pain. Not much slack in the cable. Could I have pulled a wire loose disconnecting those you think?

1 - Hopefully, yes. Although a dirty connector or weak wire might muck with the YCC-T system, but due to the fail-safe redundancy built into the system, I find it hard to believe that the bike would "partially run" if there was corrosion or a wire that was hanging on by a few threads... just my gut feeling. The other weak idle culprits could be APS/TPS adjustment or dirty Throttle Bodies/plates, fuel, sparkplugs, valve clearances, timing, etc.... All which I'm fairly certain we/you've covered previously.

2- They ARE a pain, and yes it is possible that something got damaged by unplugging/plugging those 2 ECM connectors. Before doing the testing below, I'd also recommend unplugging the Black 2P connector for the YCC-T Servo motor, which is located in your last pic approx in the 3:00 position of the pic. Inspect the connector carefully, making sure the wires and pins are seated fully in the connector (not beginning to poke out of the wire side for example). Check that the seal didn't get stuck in the servo motor side and that the pins are ok. Reconnect the 2P servo motor connector if all is well, it should click or seat firmly into place when properly connected.

Next steps... (Key off for this test...)

The ETV fuse sits in 2 terminals in the fuse box: 1 that you checked for 12V battery power (I'm assuming you connected one meter lead to the terminal and the other to battery ground and got your 12V result that you posted) and the other terminal should be a R/W wire (not necessary to remove fuse box and flip upside down to confirm unless you want to. ) The R/W terminal position that DID NOT have 12Vdc is the one to use for this next test.

Disconnect the 2 ECM connectors. Change your VOM to the Ohms position, and connect your meter leads together, it should read close to 0 (zero) or 0.5 or less. (Your meter may vary from mine). once you know what your meter reads when in the Ohms position and the leads are connected to each other, go to Battery Ground with one lead and touch one of the engine mount bolts, etc and see that you get a similar result to the leads being connected together. Now remove the fuse again and check continuity from the ETV terminal in the fuse box (that didn't have 12Vdc) to BOTH R/W wires where they enter the LARGER of the 2 ECM connectors. The R/W wires (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH W/R, because those exist as well) are located in the same row of the larger ECM connector, separated by a solid R wire.

One of those 2 R/W wires should have continuity to the ETV fuse box terminal.  (the other should have continuity to a terminal of the Ignition fuse position, if you're curious.) This test will tell us if the wires from the fuse box to the ECM are good, and if the ECM is receiving power to pass on and activate the servo motor. Be careful probing the ECM connector!!! DON'T JAM your VOM tip into the ECM connectors, they are easily damaged. You'll need to find a small thin safety pin, or a pin or needle (like from a sewing kit) to stick gently into the ECM connector. Basically something the same size as the pins in the ECM if you need a reference. The correct tool to use is called a Back Probe connector/adapter, but not everyone has access to those.

(DO NOT JAM A STRAIGHTENED PAPER CLIP into the ECM connector, they are too thick!)

Secondly, while you have the ECM in your hands, gaze at the male pins where both of the connectors seat into the ECM and make sure they are all sitting pretty in neat rows, not bent or broken, etc. and make sure a water seal or the like didn't get stuck in there somehow.

Similarly check both sides of the ECM connectors carefully to be sure that a female pin didn't somehow begin to exit the back of the connector (wire side) which you could see for example if the insulating part is beginning to stick out more than the surrounding wires where they enter the back of the connector. They should all be the same height and inserted properly.

If you get continuity on the R/W wire and everything else checks out, plug both ECM connectors carefully back in, reinstall any removed fuses etc and switch the Ign back on and crank the engine for a couple seconds (tank off is fine but everything else connected) to see if your code 60 has disappeared.

If so, then you had a bad connection at the ECM or fuses and you should now be able to key off, pause, key-on, re-enter DIAG mode and recheck channel 1 and 13 and all should be well. Clearing the code should also now be possible.

If things are still broken the next wires to check run between the ECM connector and the YCC-T servo motor.

This situation really isn't making a whole lotta sense based on the circumstances you've described in this thread previously, so hopefully it will turn out to just be a bad connection or something simple. None of this should have happened because of a weak battery (unless you attempted a jump start before replacement: that's a different conversation) so hopefully you'll turn something up with this basic troubleshooting. If it were me, I'd go back over everything I handled, plugged-in or unplugged to be sure something just isn't loose or disconnected somewhere.

remember the 70/30 rule: 70% of the time it's a bad/poor connection and 30% of the time it's a component failure.

Keep us posted and good luck.

-Skip

Edited March 15, 2021 by skipperT

[angrygirafe]

22 hours ago, skipperT said:

snip

Okie dokie, I snuck out to the garage for a few minutes and scored some additional poking.

 

I started with the YCC-T Servo plug (hopefully, it's got a half circle in blue just incase I'm off), and the plug and socket looked good, and were firmly attached. 

I then did a continuity check on my meter, and verified frame to ground, and the ETV fuse block non-powered side to one of the R/W wired on the larger ECM plug.

 

So moving on to the pins. On the large connector, Pin 7 (red arrow) is folded down agains Pin 18 (blue arrow). I did notice this the other day, but because it looks neatly folded I assumed it was normal. On the plug side, the slot for Pin 7 is much smaller (red arrow), then there's an extra hole between it and the slot for Pin 18 (blue arrow). The slot for Pin 18 is enlarged.

I checked the YCC-T Servo wires next, with continuity from one to Pin 8, and the Other to Pin 7. However, nothing is plugging into Pin 7 since that blade is bent to Pin 18.  Looking at the back of the wiring harness, it looks like Pin 18 is sealed off with a silicon plug, so unless it's internally connected, that servo is only halfway connected. I couldn't verify internal connection with the safety pin I had, it was too small for the large slot. But I can find something tomorrow. Could this be my culprit? Obviously I'm hesitant to start bending the pins on the ECU around, in case it was built that way. The plug side looks way strange with the different hole sizes and the extra hole though.

Edited March 16, 2021 by angrygirafe

[skipperT]

@angrygirafe yes, that’s your culprit! 
somehow the pin was displaced and punctured into the wrong area of the connector. 
if it were me, I’d carefully straighten the male pin in the ECM to where it supposed to be with the smallest pair of pliers that will fit in there - or use a set of tiny hemostats, tweezers, whatever you can get in there to carefully (!) straighten that pin. Just get it as close to in line with the others as you can.

As far as the the connector pictured above: I would try to gently enlarge the hole you are pointing to with the Red arrow so that it’s the same (or slightly bigger) than the holes around it. You’ll also need to verify the female receptacle that sits in both of those cavities hasn’t become larger than it should be, or it won’t make a good connection. 
 

it IS possible to get at those female pins by some secret method that I can’t describe to you yet, I’ll have to pull apart my bike to determine how. Usually there’s a locking mechanism that holds all those female receptacles into the connector.  Popping it out and tightening it up with pliers is easier when removed from the connector, but it’ll take some hunting to figure out how to get it out of there. 

its also possible to order a new ECM connector, but Yamaha will only sell a complete harness. Hopefully you can repair yours...

Be very ginger the first time you attempt to reassemble that plug into the ECM. If it doesn’t slide in easily or feels not right, recheck and gently keep tweaking the alignment until it seats together again.  If you’re careful and take your time, I know you can get it to work again. 

Nice work, good find!

-Skip

[peteinpa]

Jeez, I wonder what brute shoved that connector on and bent that pin.

You don't have to be scared to R&R various connectors but you must have finnese. If it doesn't go together, find out why.

[angrygirafe]

15 hours ago, skipperT said:

@angrygirafe yes, that’s your culprit! 
somehow the pin was displaced and punctured into the wrong area of the connector. 
if it were me, I’d carefully straighten the male pin in the ECM to where it supposed to be with the smallest pair of pliers that will fit in there - or use a set of tiny hemostats, tweezers, whatever you can get in there to carefully (!) straighten that pin. Just get it as close to in line with the others as you can.

As far as the the connector pictured above: I would try to gently enlarge the hole you are pointing to with the Red arrow so that it’s the same (or slightly bigger) than the holes around it. You’ll also need to verify the female receptacle that sits in both of those cavities hasn’t become larger than it should be, or it won’t make a good connection. 
 

it IS possible to get at those female pins by some secret method that I can’t describe to you yet, I’ll have to pull apart my bike to determine how. Usually there’s a locking mechanism that holds all those female receptacles into the connector.  Popping it out and tightening it up with pliers is easier when removed from the connector, but it’ll take some hunting to figure out how to get it out of there. 

its also possible to order a new ECM connector, but Yamaha will only sell a complete harness. Hopefully you can repair yours...

Be very ginger the first time you attempt to reassemble that plug into the ECM. If it doesn’t slide in easily or feels not right, recheck and gently keep tweaking the alignment until it seats together again.  If you’re careful and take your time, I know you can get it to work again. 

Nice work, good find!

-Skip

Oh man, I feel special. I noticed that pin days ago, but assumed it was fine since it was bent so neatly. But you know what they say about assuming. Female connector looks fine. I’m guessing the pins in it are similar to a Molex connector if I need to try and pull that one. 
 

I will *very gingerly and with great fear* try to straighten that pin tonight. Pucker factor of ten. 
 

Thank you so much for the walk throughs. Whether this fixes it or not, I owe you a beer (okay, a bottle) if you ever come though Phoenix. 
 

Will report this evening!

9 hours ago, peteinpa said:

Jeez, I wonder what brute shoved that connector on and bent that pin.

You don't have to be scared to R&R various connectors but you must have finnese. If it doesn't go together, find out why.

I hope I’m not the brute, but since I did ride it home from the shop, I believe the evidence points towards me. The locking tab on the connector is all sorts of messed up though, so it’s definitely been handled less than gently in the past. 

[skipperT]

36 minutes ago, angrygirafe said:

. I’m guessing the pins in it are similar to a Molex connector if I need to try and pull that one. 
 

I will *very gingerly and with great fear* try to straighten that pin tonight. Pucker factor of ten.

No idea on if it similar to Molex or not, but based on your photo above, I'd pry gently with a small flat head screwdriver from the Lh and Rh side and that black "cap" (with the numbers on it) may just pop right off. Or if that doesn't work have a gaze down those 2 slots on the edge of the "cap" (approx 9:00 and 3:00 position) and see if there's a small tab in there that could be moved slightly away to unlock each side of the "cap"

Naw, just take your time.  Those pins are fairly strong...(pucker of 5 maybe...)

Those tabs get buggered fairly easily, they can be hard to depress unless you partially slide out the ECM to get your fingers on the release tab for the connector. If you don't do that, screwdrivers and pliers probably get used...

I'd love to grab a brew in AZ if I ever get down, will look you up.

-S

Edited March 16, 2021 by skipperT

[peteinpa]

Did you straighten that pin yet? I'd do that then connect the ECU and try to start the bike the same way you do it for a TB sync with it all apart.

[angrygirafe]

Spoiler alert: still Fault 60. I got the pin straightened out decently, and also pushed the obstructing plastic away from the female pin on the other side. It just kind of slid back, like it was a broken piece. But it did clear the pin. 
 

Plugged the unit in, turned on the key, and it still showed 60. Cranked it anyway, but no dice. The 60 does disappear while cranking, but comes back once I stop. 
 

Got into Diag mode, still no changes for Diag1 or Diag13. Diag61 showed two errors. I rocked the switch and it cleared one, one still pending.

Unplugged the ECU again and the pins were still straight. Checked then connection at the servo which was solid, then checked continuity from there to the ECU plug, which was good. 
 

But maybe the female pin is bent out or something since the plastic seemed damaged.  I’ll try and look at that closer tomorrow. 

[Buggy Nate]

3 hours ago, angrygirafe said:

Spoiler alert: still Fault 60. I got the pin straightened out decently, and also pushed the obstructing plastic away from the female pin on the other side. It just kind of slid back, like it was a broken piece. But it did clear the pin. 
 

Plugged the unit in, turned on the key, and it still showed 60. Cranked it anyway, but no dice. The 60 does disappear while cranking, but comes back once I stop. 
 

Got into Diag mode, still no changes for Diag1 or Diag13. Diag61 showed two errors. I rocked the switch and it cleared one, one still pending.

Unplugged the ECU again and the pins were still straight. Checked then connection at the servo which was solid, then checked continuity from there to the ECU plug, which was good. 
 

But maybe the female pin is bent out or something since the plastic seemed damaged.  I’ll try and look at that closer tomorrow. 

I would be pulling apart the female connector (carefully) ! And inspecting those terminals. From the pictures the bent male pin may have jammed down a position and possibly opened up one of the terminals. I have as I’m sure Skip has too, people probing for issues and opened the terminals so far that they no longer contact. The hole directly below the former bent pin looks very enlarged compared to the rest.

If I remember correctly, those ecu plugs need that black plastic cap removed before the locking pins can be accessed to remove individual terminals.

The other possibility is the bent terminal has shorted out to the one below and possibly caused an internal fault in the ecu. I have seen that before too.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Buggy Nate

[skipperT]

Also in the above picture, middle row RH side I see pin number 22 marked. Counting toward the left pins 24, 25, and 26 look to be pointed slightly upward? I’d tweak them slightly so they line up with everything else.

i agree with Buggy Nate too, - those female receptacles in the area where your pins went haywire and went where they shouldn’t - are now suspect. My hunch is they’ve been enlarged and aren’t making a connection on the ECM pins. 

remember when you’re making continuity checks that it DOESN'T test the fitting of the male and female pins and how tight or loose they may be. 

let’s hope for no internal ECM short, only way to rule that out is to pop in another ECM. However it is a possibility. 

after all your repairs are completed, check the ignition and etv fuses as a final check before powering on. 

finally, I realized while in DIAG mode on my bike yesterday that the ECM does time-out (or shut down) the movement of the servo motor in DIAG mode, specifically while viewing channels 1 and 13. I measured battery voltage at that point and it had dropped to 11.4-11.5vdc. (You can also view this in DIAG channel 09 ). So make sure that you check those channels FIRST when entering DIAG mode and manipulating the throttle.

Fully charge the battery and keep it on a tender while testing in DIAG mode.

-Skip

Edited March 17, 2021 by skipperT

[peteinpa]

ECU Pin Removal Guide - VTEC Academy

---

ECU pins are a pain to remove. This simple guide show you how to do it like...

I have done this for my daughters 2000 bug.  A connector got brittle, and then broken by a tech who didn't tell us.  GRRR!  Anyway, It's the same as or similar to this. 

First is a lock for all the pins in the connector. Release that. I then used a paper clip, but you first have to customize it by thinning it on both planes to mimic the real tool. U  shaped, and the ends ground sharp.

What did we do before the internet and YouTube?

I agree, the ECU pins still need tweaked so they are all perfectly straight.

I have to reinstall mine for the millionth time. I'll be looking at it closely.

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by peteinpa