Airbag equipped gear

[2and3cylinders]

On 4/7/2021 at 10:23 AM, Clem Fandango said:

I wear the In&Motion vest (Klim version). I can picture several scenarios where my body hits something hard without the tether style system deploying, and I like the idea of regular software updates my vest gets from In&Motion. I haven't had to test it out yet so I guess it's working 😉

 

Clem,

Always appreciate your insights and input.

I've noted your avatar I believe is an MRI or X-ray image of C5&C6 spinal fusion hardware, correct?

I presume this is an image of you.

I have a friend who had it done and while he has not regained arm strength, he is finally out of pain.

I need neurosurgery there too but it's still one down on my hit parade after my right shoulder.

The biggest pain issue from my bad neck discs is when I ride a sport bike, I mean it hurts all the time but it really limits my seat time on my VTR.  That makes it a major downer but compared to my L4/5 pain and associated sciatica and paralysis (now pretty much resolved after fusion) and shoulder, I've been able to deal with it for a decade. It still really sucks and one of the reasons I got my VTR.

If you did have it done, could you share a bit of your experience and outcome?

Thanks

[dazzler24]

13 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

Saw that but not very "depictive".

Again the tush and rib bladder looks more subdued...

Yes, agreed on both counts.

[maximNikenGT]

On 1/17/2022 at 3:39 AM, dazzler24 said:

I've been intrigued by these various airbag vests for a while now but have always been concerned about the possibility of cooking in them with yet another layer over the existing jacket.  My riding is done in the warmer temperature range in my part of the world and hence the concern.

It seems like the Hit-Air MLV-YC devices are (currently) about the best when it comes to maximising air flow while providing good protection.  This is just my perceived opinion.  @2and3cylinders - you seem to indicate that - yes?

I do like the idea of just replacing my existing mesh jacket with a Hit-Air (or equivalent) that incorporates the bag underneath but again, ventilation?  Is the bladder, when stored, small enough for that not to be a problem I wonder?

People may ask - what do you want good protection and be hot or less protection and cooler?  For me, if I'm way too hot then I'm unlikely to ride or worse, not wear the vest.

Comments/thoughts especially from those that have real world experience in any of them?

My thoughts after I've had my Hit-Air MLV-YC for a year now outside of my Aerostich R3 Lite suit which was designed with lots of vents for  warmer weather  riding.  I  believe it comes down to what kind of existing suit you're currently using if you're pairing with an inflatable vest.
If your underlying gear breathes well already then the vest shouldn't noticeably impede your existing airflow unless the vents happen to be directly located in the areas that the vest covers.  In the case of the aerostich it does not cover the pant, shoulder pit nor sleeve cuff zips for additional ventilation. It does however partially cover the back vent zip exhaust designed  to increase airflow through the suit.

I've not noticed the aerostich suit being more miserably hotter as a result of using the vest on rides in excess of 90 degrees F/32 degrees C with all zips open. If anything I need to switch my Givi touring windscreen to a small one during the summers to increase overall airflow hitting my body since I get very little airflow behind this Captain America sized shield of a windscreen. 

Now when I switch to my Dainese GTR mesh jacket which was designed with colder riding in mind e.g, no ventilation zips at all, I  think I  feel warmer as a result of having the Hit-air vest on but it could be just placebo effect vs actually being warmer. 

If you're replacing your current jacket with integrated inflation then this should  optimize the balance between protection and cooling, as well as reduce the additional step of adding and removing the vest each time. I'd probably go with an integrated system like the following specifically for your hot Australia weather riding: https://hitairmoto.com/shop/ols/products/motorrad-2

But if you want to keep your existing kit that already vents well, have slightly higher protection (because of the larger deployable airbag sections of the vest vs jacket - I'm assuming that bigger is better in this case), have future flexibility in transferring safety equipment to whatever future protective gear you change into, and can deal with the additional step of putting on and removing the vest each time, then vest is the way to go. 

[maximNikenGT]

On 4/7/2021 at 10:25 PM, maximNikenGT said:

This video from Hit-Air is from the Japanese Automobile Research Institute (JARI About JARI) which as far as I can tell is equivalent to the US version of the NHTSA (National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration) and conducts/establishes crash/safety testing standards. NOTE: The person in the video is wearing Hit-Air branded t-shirt so take this with a grain of salt since it is clearly marketing from the manufacturer, but pay notice to the actual crash dummy tests and their results with crash test dummies using various crash scenarios. 

 

Was re-reviewing this video and noticed that while the vest expectedly reduces body shock, what I didn't notice was the two components of neck and head impact reduction observed with using inflatable vest.  

Not only did the inflatable neck roll reduce whiplash forces experienced at the neck, it also reduces the likelihood of actual helmet contact under theoretical test fall conditions. 

 

[2and3cylinders]

I almost passed out on a hot day behind my Givi Tour screen (with MRW bolt-on spoiler).  Really it was insufferable.

I have a bikini screen for super hot weather but my OEM sized Chinese double bubble with a small adjustable spoiler is a happy medium from hotish to coldish.

I have an ancient fully lined two-piece Roadcrafter I thought they now call for the new version the "Classic" but maybe the R3.  Anyway it sounds like it has the same zip vents as yours.  It's light but IMO is not comfortable over 85f.  My Stich Transit 2 GorePro waterproof and solar reflective treated leather 2 piece has the same zip vents but only goes up to maybe 80f.  I have a walk-in cedar closet full of gear so finding a suit or jacket/pants combo to fit the ride is easy for me.  It's only on tour that I compromise with either the Transit 2 in the heat, or another combo and a rain suit.

The MLV-YC does impeed air flow over anything, it can't not, but it's more than worth the benefit.

[maximNikenGT]

On 1/17/2022 at 3:39 AM, dazzler24 said:

I've been intrigued by these various airbag vests for a while now but have always been concerned about the possibility of cooking in them with yet another layer over the existing jacket.  My riding is done in the warmer temperature range in my part of the world and hence the concern.

It seems like the Hit-Air MLV-YC devices are (currently) about the best when it comes to maximising air flow while providing good protection.  This is just my perceived opinion.  @2and3cylinders - you seem to indicate that - yes?

I do like the idea of just replacing my existing mesh jacket with a Hit-Air (or equivalent) that incorporates the bag underneath but again, ventilation?  Is the bladder, when stored, small enough for that not to be a problem I wonder?

People may ask - what do you want good protection and be hot or less protection and cooler?  For me, if I'm way too hot then I'm unlikely to ride or worse, not wear the vest.

Comments/thoughts especially from those that have real world experience in any of them?

Interesting article on the effects of wind above certain temperatures from an organization that tried to increase awareness surrounding the effects of ambient heat in sports and to try to prevent heat related injuries across all sports. 

At Least There's A Breeze: Wind and Heat (zunis.org)

The article references a study performed back in 1979 that became the precursor to what has become known as the Heat Index used by the US National Weather Service today: What is the heat index? (weather.gov)

What the 1979 article basically states is that a cooling effect from wind is generally felt UNLESS you exceed a specific temperature and relative humidity. Once you hit that specific temperature/humidity combination "cooling" wind actually becomes "cooking" wind. 

Ex. the chart below from the 1979 study shows a case of where if ambient temperature is 86 degrees F with a relative humidity of 60%, then the cooling effect from a 33.6mph wind will feel cooler to the tune of -5.58 degrees F. 

The same chart also shows that if ambient conditions are at 104 degrees F and 20% relative humidity, that a wind speed of 33.6 mph will actually feel hotter to the tune of +4.5 degrees F. 

The chart in yellow/orange/red is the current heat index used by the US National Weather Service today and helps one to determine when motorcycling (or any other outdoor activity for that matter), if increased precautions e.g. increased water intake, should be taken when pursuing outdoor recreation.

I drove through Australia many years ago and recall just how hot and humid your country can get. Anything in the orange/red zones is probably an ordinary day in Australia during the summertime and will come down to whether having additional safety falls within a noticeable and acceptable tradeoff in cooling. 

 

After reviewing this information, my super massive Givi screen might actually be preventing me from getting as hot by preventing "cooking" wind from hitting me during summertime rides... although the heat still seems punishing, data suggests that if I had a smaller screen in the orange or red zone temp/humidity ranges then it might actually be worse for the rider from the heat even though the body is registering a wind (just not a cooling one).

Edited January 26, 2022 by maximNikenGT
clarified statement

[dazzler24]

48 minutes ago, maximNikenGT said:

I drove through Australia many years ago and recall just how hot and humid your country can get. Anything in the orange/red zones is probably an ordinary day in Australia during the summertime and will come down to whether having additional safety falls within a noticeable and acceptable tradeoff in cooling. 

An interesting read.  And you're right, there are days when it simply feels better while out riding to keep out of the breeze and button up, even though it seems counter-intuitive.

Pulling up for regular short breaks with the helmet and jacket off in a shady park/area combined with plenty of hydration seem to provide a recharge and keep me going in those conditions.

[maximNikenGT]

Was trying to find an equivalent heat index in Celsius for riders in those parts of the world and oddly wasn't able to find one very easily.

Stumbled across this article that talks about the effects of heat and humidity on dairy cow production and found the index interesting in that it presents a view that if you're in temperatures of 80 degrees F / 26.7 degrees C at relative humidity of 20%, then as a dairy cow you should experience no stress related to the heat/humidity e.g. no impacts to milk production.

Waste heat could keep cows cool and comfortable | Cornell Chronicle

So summertime rides above 92 degrees F / 33.3 degrees C already begin in the mild stress zone and only goes up from there as temp/humidity climb. Once you throw on the "cooking" wind factor it just increases the speed with which one progresses from one distressed zone to another.  

If this chart is applicable to humans, then overall I took this to suggest that as a rider, rides of 86 degrees / 0% humidity is the maximum inflection point for when your body starts to not enjoy itself as much from the heat/humidity. Ancedotally this seems to corroborate with my personal riding experiences as some of the best and most enjoyable rides I've experienced were in this mid-70 degrees F to low 80 degrees F range. 

[2and3cylinders]

All I know about the barn door Givi screen is that on a 83+ humid day I couldn't breath behind it and felt faint...otherwise in lower temps it's PDG.

[daboo]

On 1/17/2022 at 6:29 PM, dazzler24 said:

All good feedback guys - thanks. 🙂

@2and3cylinders - I do have one of those evaporative cooling vests stashed away somewhere that I'd forgotten about so will have to dig that out and give it a whirl under the mesh jacket.

Just a thought regarding the evaporative cooling vests.  Plan this out really really well before you leave home.  On the road, is not when you want to find out your plan didn't work.

I soak my vest in the motel room sink before leaving in the morning.  I often just leave it in the sink overnight.  It doesn't need that much time, but it's just my routine.  I put the soaked cooling vest into a couple of gallon-sized ziplock bags.  Be careful about where you put it.  I've had mine leak once and my tools and an electronic jump start brick suffered.

Don't wring it out when you put it in the bag, or put it on.  Save some of that water.  You may need it.  If you have some extra water that you don't need for drinking, that would be good too.

When I met those riders in an earlier post, I stopped at a rest stop.  The water coming out of the drinking fountain was just the slightest trickle.  It was worthless.  So having it pre-soaked and ready to go is smart.

On that same trip, I pulled into a Mom and Pop diner in a town that had a main street with an "L" turn halfway down.  Tiny.  It was about 1130, so I got some lunch.  By the time I finished, the temps outside were scorching hot on their way towards 100F.  In the middle of the restaurant they had set up several tables for a family gettogether.  I went outside and got my cooling vest and its bag.  This one teenage girl stood there watching me with eyes wide and mouth as I put on this dripping wet vest.  She obviously thought I was nuts.  All I was thinking was how sweet it was going to be as I rode away with my "air conditioning".

Chris

Edited January 28, 2022 by daboo

[maximNikenGT]

On 1/17/2022 at 9:29 PM, dazzler24 said:

All good feedback guys - thanks. 🙂

@2and3cylinders - I do have one of those evaporative cooling vests stashed away somewhere that I'd forgotten about so will have to dig that out and give it a whirl under the mesh jacket.

@daboo- I understand what you're saying about closing up when the temperature gets too high even though it seems counter intuitive.  The Bedouins seem to know a thing or two about heat control after all and you don't see too many of them in shorts and T-shirts!  Your statement - "I actually find it helpful in extreme hot weather." is good feedback.

@PhotoAl- Your feedback about your vest not impeding your cooling in those temps is also good to know - thanks.

The Bedouin comment I've always wondered about. I'm a mechanical engineer by education and the three primary methods of heat transfer that they drill into you in school is either through conduction, convection, or radiation. 

I've known that the Bedouins wear long flowing clothing to keep cool. That made sense to allow air to pass through and cool one's body via convection. Light colors e.g. white, made sense since it reflects the most radiation. What never made sense to me was why Bedouins wear black. 

Took a few articles before it started to makes sense. Preview Article from January 18, 1980 by Nature confused me with the following statement:

"We report here that the amount of heat gained by a Bedouin exposed to the hot desert is the same whether he wears a black or a white robe. The additional heat absorbed by the black robe was lost before it reached the skin."

Why do Bedouins wear black robes in hot deserts? | Nature 

This comment didn't make any sense to me at first blush. I started to better understand when I ran across this more recent thread from 2020: 

Why do Bedouins wear black robes in hot deserts? - R4 DN 

"Why did Bedouins wear black? Researchers have studied the heavy black robes worn by Bedouins in the desert. They say the key there is thickness. The outer layer of fabric does get hotter because the black color absorbs more heat. And that heat doesn’t get transmitted to the skin because of the thick fabric.

 

Does black really absorb heat? Black does absorb heat from the sun at a faster pace than white, but black also absorbs the heat from your body as well. “White clothing reflects sunlight, but also reflects internal heat back towards your body, so the net effect under identical conditions is less cooling than if you wore black.”

So basically heat transfer via black robes means heat transfer through:

a. conduction (surface to surface contact, in this case robe on skin) and by
b. radiation (assuming your skin isn't darker than the shade of your black robes)
c. convection via the cloth's loose-fitting cut

These combined ultimately has a higher net cooling effect in comparison to white robes. This is because:

a. White robes would act like those space blankets which utilize your body's radiation to reflect heat back to yourself and b. The thicker black robes means that although the sun is baking the outside, it's thick enough that it doesn't transfer to your body via conduction, but takes advantage of the higher direction of radiation heat transfer from your skin to the dark heavy robe cloth. 

So in summary, if there is a way to create flowing protective black motorcycle gear for hot weather riding, you'd be raking in the money...

Edited January 29, 2022 by maximNikenGT

[dazzler24]

3 hours ago, maximNikenGT said:

So in summary, if there is a way to create flowing protective black motorcycle gear for hot weather riding, you'd be raking in the money...

Sounds good in theory maxim but if you have a close look at Darth Maul's face I think you'd have to agree that he's absolutely cooking in that getup!!  Either that or his blood pressure is through the roof OR he's had a face plant off the Sith Speeder at some point. 🤣

[2and3cylinders]

Your Stitch already offers some of those features. 

BTW, I'm not sure if Aerostitch's Transit 3 waterproof leather suit has it but my T2 and the original version's GorePro Goretex laminated micro perforated (for interior vapor outward transfer not ventilation) black leather is also topically  impregnated with micro Mica particulates which serves to insulate and reflect solar rays to keep the surface as much as 15°F cooler than normal black leather.  I've actually tested this claim and it's true.

[maximNikenGT]

22 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

Your Stitch already offers some of those features. 

BTW, I'm not sure if Aerostitch's Transit 3 waterproof leather suit has it but my T2 and the original version's GorePro Goretex laminated micro perforated (for interior vapor outward transfer not ventilation) black leather is also topically  impregnated with micro Mica particulates which serves to insulate and reflect solar rays to keep the surface as much as 15°F cooler than normal black leather.  I've actually tested this claim and it's true.

Very interesting - didn't realize the Transit 2 had this proprietary solar-reflective pigment in the leather.

Aerostich Transit 2 Suit Review | Rider Magazine

Transit 3 suit doesn't explicitly mention this - but it might be part of their new Corium+ treatment (whatever that is since no explanation is given on what it is on the site). Would need to verify independently if the new Transit 3 utilize this as well. 

Transit 3 Waterproof Leather Two Piece Suit : Aerostich RiderWearhouse

Found this article on Corium+. CORIUM+® unveils new lighter weight laminate and exhibited on the RUKKA Aramos and AEROSTICH Transit combis | MAT GROUP

Apparently a new construction method for leather bonded with materials to make the apparel waterproof/windproof/yet allow moisture to escape. Jury is still out on whether the new Transit 3 utilize this proprietary solar-reflective pigment in the leather. 

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by maximNikenGT

[maximNikenGT]

Incidentally I put in an inquiry in last week as to whether or not there were any plans currently to incorporate inflation safety into their suits. Currently that would be a no.