Bad brakes

[Ride365]

My Tracer brakes were for sure better than my previous V-Strom for sure right off the bat, but the fronts felt a bit wooden until I properly bedded them in......NOW they stop amazing with great feel. I'm a big fan of Galfer HH pads, that's what I will be going with once these are ready to be replaced.  

[Lone Wolf]

6 hours ago, petshark said:

Unfortunately the options in my area for speed bleeders are very limited...

Not required. Nice to have, but you can get the job done 100% with simply a tube that goes into a jar. Follow the videos.

Without a speed bleeder It just means you have to close the caliper bleed nipple after you squeeze the brake lever (if you are doing it manually).

Once a bottle of brake fluid has been opened most sources say to discard after about 3 months because some moisture will be absorbed from exposure to atmosphere. You will discard a bottle before it is empty, so you can just pour an inch or so of brake fluid in the jar before you start, and that eliminates the risk of air coming back into the caliper, the end of the hose is submerged in liquid.

[2WHLOZK]

Before I traded in my FJR for the Tracer GT, I researched the Tracer quite a bit, so I was already aware of the bike's braking shortcomings.  The dealer even warned me about it on the day I picked up the GT.  After the Tracer's pads broke in, the difference in stopping power between the two bikes was still pretty drastic.  

I understand that the Tracer is built to a price.  That's what makes it "a lotta bike for the money".  In that pursuit, certain niceties need to be eliminated or compromised e.g. premium tires, premium chain, adjustable clutch lever, etc.   But I have to question Yamaha's decision to compromise on the Tracer's brake pads.  

Curious to see if Yamaha does better in this regard with the new Tracer 9.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by 2WHLOZK
spelling correction

[Ride365]

What's the short comings with the brakes? ❓ The front brakes and master cylinder is made by a company who makes for many high end cars and several motorcycles, they are by no means inferior to Tokico or Nissin, and well.......Brembo are Brembo however.  I personally find the front brakes to be damn good, and that is comparing to bikes I've ridden equipped with Brembo systems, but of course HH pads are going to overall work/perform better than organic. 

[petshark]

1 hour ago, Ride365 said:

I personally find the front brakes to be damn good, and that is comparing to bikes I've ridden equipped with Brembo systems, but of course HH pads are going to overall work/perform better than organic. 

 

2 hours ago, 2WHLOZK said:

Before I traded in my FJR for the Tracer GT, I researched the Tracer quite a bit, so I was already aware of the bike's braking shortcomings.  The dealer even warned me about it on the day I picked up the GT.  After the Tracer's pads broke in, the difference in stopping power between the two bikes was still pretty drastic.

This reminds me of the many vlogger reviews that I've seen about the Tracer (18-19-20). The opinions about the brakes are so polarized that I'm really starting to think that not all Tracers are created equal. They might have sourced a bad batch of pads perhaps?

I did immediately notice during the test ride that the brakes were very weak. Because the rear brake almost did nothing I asked the mechanic to check that. He did a few stops and said that this was the normal feel for these brakes... At the same time he was comparing my first Yamaha to other Japanese bikes and said that Yamaha is known for their superior brakes. But my precious Kawasaki which is about half the retail price had a lot better brakes. The entire thing remains an mystery to me.

I hope to get really stellar brakes by doing the brake bleed and pad upgrade. Maybe I can post pictures of the stock pads as they are now and who knows maybe we can get to the bottom of this.

[petshark]

3 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

you can just pour an inch or so of brake fluid in the jar before you start, and that eliminates the risk of air coming back into the caliper, the end of the hose is submerged in liquid.

Thank you for this tip.

Just to see if I'm not misunderstanding; this will not work the same way as a check valve, right? I would still need to open and close the caliper bleed nipple each time but this trick makes sure that no air can get sucked in if I make a mistake. With the check valve I can just pump oil through the system with the lever because the valve closes on it's own.

[peteinpa]

I'm another with no complaints with OEM brakes. This is on a 2015.

I love the youtube test rides.  Bike has 1 mile on it and they're bitching about the wooden brakes. Yet they don't corner hard "The tires are new" 

I'll wear out these pads before I put on EBC pads.

[petshark]

From learning online about bleeding the brakes I think I've got a better idea of what air in the system will feel like and I don't think this is the issue with my bike. I feel a lot of counter pressure when I squeeze the brake. It does not feel spongy at all. I feels at least as good as my previous bikes, it's just the braking response that I'm getting that is very weak. As I said it's almost impossible to trigger the ABS.

Just wondering if that is a good indication that it's not the oil but indeed the pads that are at fault? (I will change the oil anyway)

*Sorry, for the multiple posts. Not sure if it's better to put it all in one post?

[micah2074]

You don't need speed bleeders to bleed the brakes.

[petshark]

7 minutes ago, peteinpa said:

I love the youtube test rides.  Bike has 1 mile on it and they're bitching about the wooden brakes. Yet they don't corner hard "The tires are new"

I'll wear out these pads before I put on EBC pads.

Good point! But there seem to be many riders with lots of miles who also have issues with the OEM pads and claim the EBC's are like night and day. I will be interested to hear your experience with the EBC's when you get them.

That could be a way to find out if there are indeed two different brake experiences at play here.

[Lone Wolf]

13 minutes ago, petshark said:

Thank you for this tip. Just to see if I'm not misunderstanding; this will not work the same way as a check valve, right? I would still need to open and close the caliper bleed nipple each time but this trick makes sure that no air can get sucked in if I make a mistake. With the check valve I can just pump oil through the system with the lever because the valve closes on it's own.

Yep, you are correct. It is a great habit to bleed brakes regularly, don't give the fluid a chance to get old and absorb water. So there is zero harm in just bleeding the brakes - now.

6 minutes ago, petshark said:

From learning online about bleeding the brakes I think I've got a better idea of what air in the system will feel like and I don't think this is the issue with my bike. I feel a lot of counter pressure when I squeeze the brake. It does not feel spongy at all. I feels at least as good as my previous bikes, it's just the braking response that I'm getting that is very weak. As I said it's almost impossible to trigger the ABS.

Just wondering if that is a good indication that it's not the oil but indeed the pads that are at fault? (I will change the oil anyway)

*Sorry, for the multiple posts. Not sure if it's better to put it all in one post?

That is just odd. I find the stock brakes to be at least "good". 

Just for giggles, you may want to find an empty road and do a series of maybe 4 controlled slow-downs from @ 45-60 Mph down to almost stopped (don't completely stop). Then get it up to speed again, do a controlled (not panic) fairly hard but even slow to about 5 Mph again, and just do that 4 times. 

A bike with 5,000 miles shouldn't need to have the brakes "bed in" like that, but I did once "heal" a bike that was starting to feel like wooden brakes by doing that maneuver. It is free, just look behind you before slowing down.

The reason you don't completely stop in doing this is because theoretically you are getting the pads and rotor hot enough to transfer some material from the pad to rotor (bed in). If you keep holding the brakes and come to an absolute stop, you may have more material transfer there and get pulsating brakes afterwards.

[betoney]

13 minutes ago, petshark said:

I feel a lot of counter pressure when I squeeze the brake. It does not feel spongy at all. I feels at least as good as my previous bikes, it's just the braking response that I'm getting that is very weak. As I said it's almost impossible to trigger the ABS.

Just wondering if that is a good indication that it's not the oil but indeed the pads that are at fault? (I will change the oil anyway)

If you pull the lever and it feels firm, chances are good that there is little to no air in the system but like you said, bleed it anyway.  I agree with you that it sounds like something other than air in the lines, my guess is contaminated pads (oil from a leaking fork seal?, brake fluid?). 

I'm not sure what you mean by "I feel a lot of counter pressure when I squeeze the brake", is the lever difficult to squeeze or is there resistance?  One easy thing to check is piston movement.  Remove one caliper at a time and remove the brake pads, hold 2 of the pistons in place (I use a flat bar with a C-clamp) now squeeze the brake lever and make sure both exposed pistons move in and out, they should NOT be stuck in place.  Now hold the other 2 pistons in place and check for movement of the other 2 pistons.  Replace the caliper and repeat the process on the opposite caliper.

 

[2WHLOZK]

4 hours ago, Ride365 said:

What's the short comings with the brakes? ❓ The front brakes and master cylinder is made by a company who makes for many high end cars and several motorcycles, they are by no means inferior to Tokico or Nissin, and well.......Brembo are Brembo however.  I personally find the front brakes to be damn good, and that is comparing to bikes I've ridden equipped with Brembo systems, but of course HH pads are going to overall work/perform better than organic. 

The system (any system) is only as good as its weakest link.  In my case, it was obviously the pads.  I think Yamaha cheap'd out on the pads for cost reasons.  Or...maybe there was a batch of poor pads that left the factory on a number of Tracers.  There is nothing wrong with the other brake components, as evidenced by the good performance ala the pad upgrade.

By contrast, my '19 FJR had excellent braking performance, especially for a fairly heavy bike.  Color me impressed.  That said, the FJR sells for $5000 more than the Tracer, so premium brake components were to be expected.  There is no reason the Tracer shouldn't be able to stop as well.   

Given how aggressively these bikes can be ridden, just "adequate" brakes doesn't cut it for me.   Pads replaced at ~800 miles.  Now the bike stops like it should.  Best $75 I've spent.

Staying on topic, my rear brake is kinda lame too.  I've only changed out the front pads so far, but will be doing the rear soon.  

[PhotoAl]

Comments about the rear brakes are intriguing - not disagreeing or doubting you but opposite from my experience.  At mile 0 I hop on for a short test ride and it seems like it doesn't want to stop, I press on the rear brake and bam, instant good braking! Pretty much color opposite from the bike I just got off of.  This makes me think my bike had something contaminating the font pads, it got better as I described earlier.  My bike was built 11/19 and I bought it September 2020.  It does have a battery tender lead but it does not look to have been used.  IMO it probably sat around for a while before I bought it which is why I think there may have been something on the front pads from cleaning etc.  Brakes are good now but like others have said they don't have the bite that I would like to have.   

I could see where on a bike that more first time riders might buy they may have gone with a front brake pad with not so much initial bite.  It surprised me a couple of times when I really braked hard and the bike didn't slow as anticipated.  However now with stock pads some good miles and a Michelin Pilot Power 5 front tire there is lots of brake capability.  While I love the way I got the bike and it was soooooo much fun, I didn't work up to speed with the bike like I usually do - buy, break in and work up to using the bikes capabilities over the first 1,000 miles as we get comfortable with each other.  This time I had 3,000 miles on it before I started really checking out the performance other than some straight line acceleration.

If you are reading this and thing about a Tracer 900 GT DO NOT be put off by some of the discussions about bad tires, bad suspension, bad brakes.  They are all fine but obviously built to a price point.  While frustrating to some riders the vast majority of folks are very happy with the bike as is.  I am running stock suspension and stock brakes and the bike works very well for me.  I have a set of EBC HH pads ready to put on but the stock brake are good enough it's not something I feel a burning desire to do.  

[petshark]

18 hours ago, betoney said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "I feel a lot of counter pressure when I squeeze the brake", is the lever difficult to squeeze or is there resistance?  One easy thing to check is piston movement.  Remove one caliper at a time and remove the brake pads, hold 2 of the pistons in place (I use a flat bar with a C-clamp) now squeeze the brake lever and make sure both exposed pistons move in and out, they should NOT be stuck in place.  Now hold the other 2 pistons in place and check for movement of the other 2 pistons.  Replace the caliper and repeat the process on the opposite caliper.

I mean the opposite of spongy, like you say "firm" is a better word. When I squeeze the lever pressure builds up and I quickly get to a point where I cannot squeeze it further. It feels like a really strong brake but this is not transferred to the rotor. Thank you for that tip, I will try that when I'm installing the new pads.

18 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Just for giggles, you may want to find an empty road and do a series of maybe 4 controlled slow-downs from @ 45-60 Mph down to almost stopped (don't completely stop). Then get it up to speed again, do a controlled (not panic) fairly hard but even slow to about 5 Mph again, and just do that 4 times. 

I have done something like this but maybe not 4 times. I will try it again unless I get the new pads before the weather clears up. 😃

12 hours ago, PhotoAl said:

Comments about the rear brakes are intriguing - not disagreeing or doubting you but opposite from my experience.  At mile 0 I hop on for a short test ride and it seems like it doesn't want to stop, I press on the rear brake and bam, instant good braking!

That is intriguing! I'm mostly discussing the front brake here because it is so important but the rear brake is actually a lot worse. I usually use it for slow speed stops at traffic lights and with this Tracer I need to start a lot sooner as it's scrubbing of speed so slowly. This is yet another clue that something happened to the bike causing all brakes to go bad and air in the lines is therefore unlikely. The dealer did use a product to make the bike shiny so that seems to point to contamination of all pads during my test ride.