Bad brakes

[PhotoAl]

22 minutes ago, petshark said:

This is yet another clue that something happened to the bike causing all brakes to go bad and air in the lines is therefore unlikely. The dealer did use a product to make the bike shiny so that seems to point to contamination of all pads during my test ride.

It really is interesting the differences seen among us.  I also use the rear brake at traffic lights and in the wet and had to actually re-learn a bit because of the strength of my rear brake - it is more normal now.  In hindsight which I had done several slowdowns from 50 mph when I first got the bike, probably would have made the braking much better.  Bought it on a Wednesday afternoon and had it back on Saturday for the 600 mile service, not a lot of brake usage in there.  Then I rode it 

As for the shiny stuff, had my BMW in for service one time.  They "cleaned up" the bike for me and part of that was spraying shinny stuff all over the bike.  It had matte paint!!!!  Think it was some stuff I had seen advertised in the dealership.  Know they were trying to be nice but so I didn't scream and shout about it although I felt like it!  Think I washed it off without too much trouble, would have been nice if it had been an Indian with glossy paint and chrome.

When I talk about dealers, Im not talking about the dealer I bought the Tracer GT from - they were a great dealership and a great example of how to run a motorcycle dealership.

[Lone Wolf]

39 minutes ago, petshark said:

...It feels like a really strong brake but this is not transferred to the rotor. 

...I have done something like this but maybe not 4 times. I will try it again unless I get the new pads before the weather clears up.

1) A good non-spongy brake that is "not transferred to the rotor" is obviously due to lack of friction, such as the speculation about pads being contaminated, or glazed, or crappy.

2) the reason to do the hard braking (but not complete stop) multiple times is to generate HEAT and allow transfer of brake pad material to the rotors.  If you do research on this and go down the rabbit hole, you will find that race car brake suppliers even have a service where they sell new parts that have been "bed in" at the factory. They spin the rotors and in a controlled environment, get them up to the heat needed and the transfer of pad material is done before the parts are even put on the race car. Otherwise the guy is driving in circles, brake, go, brake, go, brake, go.

3) If you never do a controlled bed-in of the brakes, it is supposed to occur gradually over time during normal driving.  When new parts are installed, the brakes may feel terrible - you bed them in - and within a few minutes you have fantastic brakes. That is especially noticeable with pads designed to give good initial bite like HH pads.

4) I have had bikes with leaking fork seals, and once the pads get contaminated with oil they will never get the friction needed to work properly. I once tried to save money by spraying the oil-soaked brake pads with harsh brake cleaners, soak in acetone, etc. but they only got slightly better. I had to change the pads (and fix the source of oil). I have never experienced a loss in braking due to "product to make the bike shiny" but I would imagine that would be much more temporary than oil-soaked. If it were my bike, and bedding in didn't help, I would pull the pads and see if they were glazed. Sand them with 120 grit until matte looking or just replace them while they are out.

[petshark]

I have ordered the EBC HH pads for the front but still need to order pads for the rear. I’ve read some suggestions for organic in the rear.

What would you suggest? 

 

[Ride365]

Oh forgot to mention......my rear brake was super responsive from the day I rode off the dealer lot, most responsive and effective rear brake I've ever felt on any motorcycle I've ridden "weird huh"? 

[texscottyd]

17 minutes ago, petshark said:

I have ordered the EBC HH pads for the front but still need to order pads for the rear. I’ve read some suggestions for organic in the rear.

What would you suggest? 

 

That’s the combination I’ve used:  EBC HH pads on the front, with the standard EBC organic pads on the rear.    I felt that the rear ABS was already too easy to activate, and the organic pads seem to work well as a replacement from stock.  

[thewrenchbender]

2 hours ago, Ride365 said:

Oh forgot to mention......my rear brake was super responsive from the day I rode off the dealer lot, most responsive and effective rear brake I've ever felt on any motorcycle I've ridden "weird huh"? 

Yup. Rear brake takes a soft foot. Takes you well into the ABS without much effort...

[2and3cylinders]

I prefer Vesrah but are too darn expensive for the bit more power and feel over HH EBC (or Galfer). Normally I too go with rear low friction pads but my 15 fastest red's rear seem contaminated because it's never been strong; which is OK. Still, I was underwhelmed by the front and went with HH pads (GG is OEM to protect newbies), Spiegler lines,  a R1 radial master cylinder and 320 rotors.

BTW, bleeding with the brake lever risks running the master cylinders piston O-rings into the dead end of the bore where crud lives that can damage the rubber.  Pressure or vacuum methods are thus preferred, and vacuum is safer and faster with little mess.

Higher wet temp synthetic fluid is preferred but if not racing, inexpensive Purolater Syn, for example, is more than adequate.

[petshark]

I’ve installed the EBC HH’s and am going for a test ride and brake them in. Have to be careful though because there is some frost.

In the meanwhile, can any trained eye see if there are traces of contamination on these pads?

[Lone Wolf]

2 hours ago, petshark said:

... if there are traces of contamination on these pads?

The main culprit I see is the glazing, and that is fairly common on brake pads that have been in use. I have taken pads like that, sanded the glazing off with 120 grit sandpaper on a flat surface, and had functioning brakes again. the HH pads will be even better because of more aggressive friction.

Your backing plates have the normal dusty residue one would expect. When my pads were contaminated from leaking seals on an older bike, the contamination was more obvious in terms of not looking just dusty but kind of muddy scum layer.

You would need to rub a rag on the pads to see if anything other than dust comes off - it is really had to tell from a photo because pads have a lot of fibers and binders that goes into the "mix" and you add wear and heat cycles to that and it is just a confetti of particles. 

In the FZ-07 world there is a video by "Jake" where his brakes just seemed to stop working. Fairly low miles, and the pads just seemed to stop grabbing. He changed to the same EBC HH’s you did in a video and all issues were fixed. He had no known contamination, no leaking fork seals, no mention of wrong cleaning substance. The stock pads just stopped grabbing. I suppose the good news is to be aware of it and do something rather than live with bad brakes.

[2and3cylinders]

I hope you first cleaned the rotors with a red or gray 3M Scotchbrite pad and 70 or 91% isopropyl alcohol, and follow your choice of bed-in procedures...

When pads get glazed I use the sanding screens for drywall, 120 grit or coarser, then brush with a SS wire brush and rinse with 91% isopropyl alcohol.  I also put a thin film of waterproof silicone grease on the caliper pad pins and clean the caliper with a toothbrush and, you guessed it, 91% isopropyl alcohol.  Careful not to extend the caliper pistons out too far when you clean them.  

[Wintersdark]

On 12/29/2020 at 12:27 PM, Ride365 said:

Oh forgot to mention......my rear brake was super responsive from the day I rode off the dealer lot, most responsive and effective rear brake I've ever felt on any motorcycle I've ridden "weird huh"? 

It's funny, I'm really happy with my fronts, but my rear is laughably awful.  My old crazy heavy XJ750 stopped better with it's rear drum than my Tracer does with it's rear brake.  Maybe I should try a new set of pads for it.  Never really thought about it much as I only ever use the rear in winter 😃

[fjray]

Replaced the fronts with EBC HH and love them.  The rear was really bad, stock. Replaced the rear pads with EBC, still crappy.  I think if I adjusted the pedal a bit it might be better but for now you might as well throw a brick out on a rope for stopping. Definitely going to put on steel lines.  I go mountain riding almost exclusively with the go fast guys.  The brakes are certainly adequate, though not too impressive.

[petshark]

7 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

You would need to rub a rag on the pads to see if anything other than dust comes off - it is really had to tell from a photo because pads have a lot of fibers and binders that goes into the "mix" and you add wear and heat cycles to that and it is just a confetti of particles.

I will check this tomorrow, thanks for the tip!

3 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

I hope you first cleaned the rotors with a red or gray 3M Scotchbrite pad and 70 or 91% isopropyl alcohol, and follow your choice of bed-in procedures...

When pads get glazed I use the sanding screens for drywall, 120 grit or coarser, then brush with a SS wire brush and rinse with 91% isopropyl alcohol.  I also put a thin film of waterproof silicone grease on the caliper pad pins and clean the caliper with a toothbrush and, you guessed it, 91% isopropyl alcohol.  Careful not to extend the caliper pistons out too far when you clean them.  

I did! It took me a while to gather all the stuff I needed for this job but I mostly followed the advice I found here.

I used a regular cheap non-scotchbrite pad and did notice some scratches on the rotors. I figured they will wear off from braking? Hopefully I didn't mess up here. I used pure isopropyl alcohol from the pharmacy. Scrubbed the calipers with a toothbrush, warm water and detergent (worked great) and used a product called plastilube, especially designed for brake caliper lubrication on the pad pins and backing plates.

I used a torque wrench and copper grease on the bolts.. I only learned later that this is controversial and maybe a more old-school method? The manual says silicone grease and I found out that the copper is abrasive so not to use it on moving parts. I also went to the garage to get a new lock for my topcase so I can use one key for everything (that install also went great) and took the opportunity to talk to the mechanic who said that he still uses copper grease, even on the sliding pins so that's a relief in a way; if I had taken it to the dealer there would be a lot more copper grease on there. 🙂

2 hours ago, Wintersdark said:

It's funny, I'm really happy with my fronts, but my rear is laughably awful.  My old crazy heavy XJ750 stopped better with it's rear drum than my Tracer does with it's rear brake.  Maybe I should try a new set of pads for it.  Never really thought about it much as I only ever use the rear in winter 😃

 

1 hour ago, fjray said:

Replaced the fronts with EBC HH and love them.  The rear was really bad, stock. Replaced the rear pads with EBC, still crappy.  I think if I adjusted the pedal a bit it might be better but for now you might as well throw a brick out on a rope for stopping. Definitely going to put on steel lines.  I go mountain riding almost exclusively with the go fast guys.  The brakes are certainly adequate, though not too impressive.

Laughably awful is exactly how I would describe my rear brakes before today. Really weird how these brakes seem to differ from bike to bike.

So I did the test drive and did a lot of braking but not really the brake in procedure yet because EBC advices to ride normally for the first 300 miles. https://ebcbrakes.com/articles/motorcycle-bed-in/

I'm very happy to say that both the EBC HH in the front and the EBC organic in the back are immediately so much better than before, even without bedding them in. I feel safe again! Thank you all.

I will also bleed the brakes next week and that plus bedding in will make them even better while I'm already very satisfied with the way they perform now. Happy days!

Edited January 16, 2021 by petshark

[dazzler24]

6 hours ago, petshark said:

I'm very happy to say that both the EBC HH in the front and the EBC organic in the back are immediately so much better than before, even without bedding them in. I feel safe again! Thank you all.

I will also bleed the brakes next week and that plus bedding in will make them even better while I'm already very satisfied with the way they perform now. Happy days!

This was my experience with this combination of brake pads too.  FWIW I found that I needed a couple (few?) bleeds to really get all the air out of the lines which left me with a nice hard lever/pedal feel.

[fjray]

I'm happy your rear pads improved your bike.  I was so happy when I got the rear upgraded pads but I swear it made no difference.  At all.