Bad brakes

[petshark]

1 hour ago, fjray said:

I'm happy your rear pads improved your bike.  I was so happy when I got the rear upgraded pads but I swear it made no difference.  At all.

Did you also scrub the rotors with isopropyl alcohol?

[fjray]

I did. I keep after my maintenance on the brakes.  I often bleed them more than once a year.  I can't believe I haven't replaced the brake lines yet.  Lazy I guess. 

[petshark]

9 hours ago, fjray said:

I did. I keep after my maintenance on the brakes.  I often bleed them more than once a year.  I can't believe I haven't replaced the brake lines yet.  Lazy I guess. 

It's just that there are people in this thread testifying to the rear brake being too potent even. Mine are now totally ok with organic pads, no bedding in and old brake oil...  so there  has to be something else going on with your rear brake.

As I understand the stainless steel brake lines are the icing on the cake for feel but it sounds to me like this will not solve your problem. That wouldn't make sense unless there is a serious defect in the brake line itself?

Could it be a stuck piston perhaps? I'm trying to help but I'm pretty new at brake maintenance so apologies if these suggestions are too obvious. Hope you find out what is causing this.

[fjray]

I can feel the pads contacting the rotors. It just doesn't seem to make much of a difference. I don't really use the rear brakes that often.  I can get the ABS to engage so I guess everything is working.  The brick on a rope comment might have been a bit of an exaggeration. 

[betoney]

3 hours ago, fjray said:

I can feel the pads contacting the rotors. It just doesn't seem to make much of a difference. I don't really use the rear brakes that often.  I can get the ABS to engage so I guess everything is working.  The brick on a rope comment might have been a bit of an exaggeration. 

Agree, the rear brakes on this bike are strange, I don't get a lot of feel from them as far as 'effective slowing' and then slightly more pedal pressure and the ABS is activating. 

I usually only use the rear brake in town going stoplight to stoplight and even then its in conjunction with the front brake and only the last stretch coming to a complete stop and holding the bike still.

[2and3cylinders]

3 hours ago, betoney said:

Agree, the rear brakes on this bike are strange, I don't get a lot of feel from them as far as 'effective slowing' and then slightly more pedal pressure and the ABS is activating. 

I usually only use the rear brake in town going stoplight to stoplight and even then its in conjunction with the front brake and only the last stretch coming to a complete stop and holding the bike still.

I of course concur about the lack of feel, so now maybe I'll rethink HH pads due to concerns about locking it up and tripping the ABS.

Leverage ratio vs piton area off?

I do use the rear to settle it down for trail braking and even steering it around coming it hot, so I'm going to mull this over.

How do you like the front now, as we've done the same mods give or take?

[betoney]

41 minutes ago, 2and3cylinders said:

How do you like the front now, as we've done the same mods give or take?

The front brakes are ...fine, I have had issues with the brakes since owning the bike, have had calipers, pads and ABS pump replaced under warranty and upgraded every single piece of the braking system, tried Vesrah RJL and EBC HH pads, Oversize R1 rotors, Spiegler lines, 2 different R1 master cylinders, stock and aftermarket R1 levers, system bled dozens of times (by myself and the service department) and I sand the pads and clean the rotors several times a year and the brakes work 'fine', that's the best I can say.

I recently spent the day on a buddies bone-stock Africa Twin and its brakes felt superior to mine in every way even with standard MC, GG pads and stock lines.  The AT lever feel is rock hard within a few mm of lever movement, and will not compress any further, mine gets firm within 20mm of lever travel, but then if I squeeze really hard the lever will go almost to the grip (stock MC and both R1 MC's), the HH pads have never had improved initial bite and I have even bought rebuild kits for the MC and caliper seals...  🤷‍♀️

Funny thing, I did the same work on my YZ250,- swapped MC and installed a braided steel line and it is OMG Amazing!, truly one finger over-the-bars stopping power, not sure why my FJ is so lackluster?

[decouvrir]

2 hours ago, betoney said:

The front brakes are ...fine, I have had issues with the brakes since owning the bike, have had calipers, pads and ABS pump replaced under warranty and upgraded every single piece of the braking system, tried Vesrah RJL and EBC HH pads, Oversize R1 rotors, Spiegler lines, 2 different R1 master cylinders, stock and aftermarket R1 levers, system bled dozens of times (by myself and the service department) and I sand the pads and clean the rotors several times a year and the brakes work 'fine', that's the best I can say.

I recently spent the day on a buddies bone-stock Africa Twin and its brakes felt superior to mine in every way even with standard MC, GG pads and stock lines.  The AT lever feel is rock hard within a few mm of lever movement, and will not compress any further, mine gets firm within 20mm of lever travel, but then if I squeeze really hard the lever will go almost to the grip (stock MC and both R1 MC's), the HH pads have never had improved initial bite and I have even bought rebuild kits for the MC and caliper seals...  🤷‍♀️

Funny thing, I did the same work on my YZ250,- swapped MC and installed a braided steel line and it is OMG Amazing!, truly one finger over-the-bars stopping power, not sure why my FJ is so lackluster?

Wow, looks like you done all the work required

Edited January 19, 2021 by decouvrir

[2and3cylinders]

My stock master cylinder was hard as a rock within a 5 mm which I didn't like because I wanted more travel and feel.  The 2014 R1 master cylinder did the trick though the aftermarket lever screwd the pooch, so I went to the stock R1 lever and all is well.  Really I'm happy enough with the oversized R1 rotors, EBC HH pads, Speigler lines and 14 R1 Brembo master so I'm done. There's just the rear that's got me questioning. Maybe the 2014 R1 master cylinder would do the trick for you.

[betoney]

26 minutes ago, 2and3cylinders said:

My stock master cylinder was hard as a rock within a 5 mm which I didn't like because I wanted more travel and feel.  The 2014 R1 master cylinder did the trick though the aftermarket lever screwd the pooch, so I went to the stock R1 lever and all is well.  Really I'm happy enough with the oversized R1 rotors, EBC HH pads, Speigler lines and 14 R1 Brembo master so I'm done. There's just the rear that's got me questioning. Maybe the 2014 R1 master cylinder would do the trick for you.

I have a few different configurations that I am going to try again, I have oem and aftermarket levers for both the stock and R1 master cylinders, easy enough to switch and one configuration might feel better than the other.

Any reason to think that a '14 R1 MC might work better than my '06??

[dazzler24]

10 hours ago, betoney said:

 The AT lever feel is rock hard within a few mm of lever movement, and will not compress any further, mine gets firm within 20mm of lever travel, but then if I squeeze really hard the lever will go almost to the grip (stock MC and both R1 MC's), the HH pads have never had improved initial bite and I have even bought rebuild kits for the MC and caliper seals...  🤷‍♀️

That seems odd to me in that after changing the lines to braided and bleeding the system two or three times, I find that the lever feel is that of your Africa Twin buddy's brakes.  I admit that the rear is used sparingly and the feel at the back, as described by many is 'average', but the front for me with sintered pads can only be described as a revelation when compared with the original organic pads.  The lever feel is 'solid' and short with no fade.

I will admit that it didn't get that way until I had bled and re-bled the system several times and used a cable tie on the front brake lever overnight and a weight on the rear brake lever to 'squeeze' every drop (bubble) of air out of the system (twice).

Should also mention that I activated the ABS several times before each bleed.

Strange that you should be experiencing a different outcome but having said that, I've been around long enough to know that anything is possible and there are many factors that can affect the final outcome.

[petshark]

2 hours ago, dazzler24 said:

Should also mention that I activated the ABS several times before each bleed.

Could the ABS pump be the culprit? I mean we have so many totally different experiences in this thread and when all other parts have been upgraded and the brakes are still no good that must mean somthing.

Some people say the front is excellent but the rear is crap, some the other way round, some get night and day difference with changing pads and some get no difference when upgrading everything.

Just guessing here but could there be a design flaw in the ABS system that causes air to get trapped there?

[fjray]

I'm just guessing but I think a lot of people ride harder than others.  So, we have results all over the place. 

[Ride365]

My front lever is very firm with little take up and reacts quickly, odd that there are very obvious different results from others. My brakes are very good and responsive as is, can only imagine will be even better with some Galfer HH. Oh and for the record.....I ride plenty aggressive.  

Edited January 19, 2021 by Ride365

[petshark]

6 hours ago, fjray said:

I'm just guessing but I think a lot of people ride harder than others.  So, we have results all over the place. 

I'm sure that that is part of this but it does not explain the great front brake / bad rear brake and vice versa phenomenon. I'm still convinced that there is a mystery to be solved here. 🙂