cantin

On 2/24/2022 at 3:53 PM, skipperT said:

@cantin there you go. Replace all and it should work. Use old key for your fuel tank and seat lock. 
 

@dazzler24the service manual assumes NEW components, I think that is where the trouble lies.  Even if we had the red key (which is what the purchased used ECM “knows” or has been taught previously) we still have a main switch that recognizes cantin’s original red key. So for re-training purposes it still might require that matching main switch to be plugged in temporarily for relearn. 

this is what makes immobilizer systems such a pain in the ass. 

there are hacks out there in the sport bike world, I don’t know which ones work and research would be required. People run into this all the time when converting wrecked/stolen bikes into track bikes. 

if you follow Yamahas chart and assume new components, then the repair process should go smoothly. 

-S

It is finally concluded, ecu, main switch, tank lock, seat lock all installed. Took it for a night ride and it was singing.

Encountered some fun things along the way for instance, taking out some bolts that didn't have any attachment, therefor having to drill them out and use some stud removers and some elbow grease. but in the end I feel like I know the majority of the front of this bike now. So it was a learning experience and fun to tinker, but hopefully it stays together and I can enjoy some serious miles this season.  

10 minutes ago, dazzler24 said:

I'm not familiar enough in this area to offer any further advice and won't pretend otherwise so will now defer to those who are and who hopefully will respond here to your question/s.  I'm just as keen to learn how these things (the immobiliser and ECU) interact.

As a final note - I would have thought that any ECU, as long as it is completely compatible - and there's a question mark there (for me) with the 2nd hand one that you bought, to be able to be reprogrammed with the red key and that should be the end of it given the instructions in the service manual.  Really hope you get this resolved.

I had a chat just now with someone from carmo.nl they are a flashing company and ecu repairer. They say its 1 model year too new for my bike , 'I shoulda listened better to Skip'.
He said he could flash it and make it compatible, but then you also have to pay for the performance flash. He also said for round 300e. He can just repair the old ecu. He also said, when they are used, they are already paired with another immobilized and therefor have to be cleared (made virgin again).
So if I find another older ECU he could do that for round 150e. (but the problem is these are difficult to find cheap). 

I'm interested what you guys think or have to add. 

8 hours ago, Buggy Nate said:

We have the immobilisers here in Oz as well. The wreckers always sell the ecu in a set with all the corresponding locks and receivers.

They can be a major pain in the ass otherwise.

You will need to follow the procedure to recode the old keys to the new ecu. 

I think I did follow the 'procedure' to try and recode. But without luck. Just throws code 54. 

Yea I tried with the red key with nothing near by. Still just get the immobilized reaction. No fuel pump priming just turning over. 
From what I understood, at least from the service Manual, If the ecu is defective one only needs to replace the ECU, But maybe  this assumes a new replacement where it hasn't been paired to an immobilizer yet. 

Is it maybe ah option that I send it to one of the reprogramming guys to have it coded to the same as my Original ECU?

Well I have returned, after a quick vacation and waiting for my replacement ECU to arrive. I have run into yet another Problem. 
So I have also returned for guidance. 

I decided to replace the ECU with a used one. As I figured this was the cheapest option. I found some online contacted the dealer/shop and he sent me one. 

I installed it and when I went to re register the code key ... I found that the bike won't reregister. At least not from the procedure explained in what I think is the correct service manual. Basically insert red key turn it on and wait 1 second for it to recognize the red key. 

 

When I do this, the immobilizer light flashes, and suggests a problem. We get turn over, but no start. Flashing immobilizer light shows a code of 54. I then found that reference in the reference table.

Here is says a few reasons for why it gives this code and some Actions. But is there something I can do to make this work? Anyone have thoughts?
 

 Below are some pictures. 



 

Original 8591A-10. Replacement 8591A-60, Red key from original bike
From what the shop I bought the ECU from he said the 10 vs 60 shouldn't be a problem. Does anyone have information that supports this?

Also I retried my old ECU and the bike still fires right up. 



 

15 hours ago, skipperT said:

This is a great question.  And one that I have been answering since (I think) people around here started asking "how can I get my passing lamps to come on with my headlights?". And I keep telling anyone that posts that question to NOT TAP INTO ANY OF THE HEADLAMP WIRING when installing passing lamps! Because this is the worst case scenerio of what can happen if its not done correctly!  Yours is the 3rd ECM that I'm aware of on these forums to (potentially) have a blown driver circuit inside the ECM for activating the headlights.

Anyway (off my soapbox...) it IS possible that your ECM got blown due to the wiring of the Previous Owners passing lamp setup. It is also possible that he changed it after the first ECM had the driver circuit blown, then it was changed with an ECM from a 16 model and then THAT ECM blew it's driver circuit because the wiring was never corrected. OR... It's possible that the ECM was replaced with an ECM from a 16 model that was purchased used and the headlight circuit was already blown but he needed a replacement because he wanted a stock flash and he kept/sold the flashed ECM,  OR... (insert another possibility here...)

Anyway, check the wiring for the passing lamps and make sure nothing is connected to the LH headlight switch wiring someplace. Same for the harness above where that 6P and 4P connector come from. Better yet, following all the wiring from the passing lamp relay to and from the switch to make sure nothings amiss.

At least, that's how I would proceed. YMMV,

-Skip

(phew)

So we have here my dusty horse all taken apart. Sw motec fog lights are wired into the harness under the dash. They work just fine with the switch on the handle bar, of course only if main switch is on. 


This can be seen in the image below. I assume this is an okay place to pull energy. It then goes to a switch on the handle bar.


The wiring for it first runs to the switch on the handle bar and then 2 outputs one to each of the two the lights. 

With this source of power, it shouldn't have anything todo with pin 19 right? or is there some sort of overlap maybe inside that ecu that could be the problem? Just double checking. 

Also discovered a aftermarket Quickshifter........ Which I didn't really realize the bike had, as I bought the bike in France and admittedly my French is not so great. 
But anyway... I dont think this should also have anything todo with headlight. It looks like the Quickshifter is wired in off of the battery.. 

Any know if there could be a connection between this and headlight? or is it maybe as skip suggested that the owner before wanted to keep a flashed ecu situation?

3 hours ago, duckie said:

Just throwing this out there……..food for thought…..

The hcu doesnt care where the source for headlight control comes from. It just wants to see the proper control input.  
 

A option, and this is just a thought, find another source for the hcu contol input. For the example….if the hcu control input is 12 vdc….just find another 12vdc source to use and use a switch to control that source. This could be a temporary fix until you get a know good ecu. You would just have to remember  to use the switch.

This would require cutting the y/b….but if done right, going back to orginal wiring wont be hard.
 
FWIW……

 

Isn't it the problem not that it isn't getting 12 volts, rather that it isn't getting any ground via yellow or yellow black? Yellow black is not just 12v it is a controlling wire I think. 12v and current comes from green I think. 

But to be honest I don't mind having the bike out of commission while I repair it fully. 

2 hours ago, cantin said:

But I also have the coveted red key. It seems from the Manual that even with the immobilizer I can still just reteach it eh? 

 

Update: ecu is out.
From pin 19, I measured continuity to yellow and yellow/black at 6 pin (yellow/black: with high beam selected)
that means I shall try and find a second hand ecu to confirm the diagnosis.

Unless some on the forum has a 15'16' ecu just lying around of course

*** interestingly. My bike is a 2015 that is stated on the registration, but the ECU I took out has the number 2SC-8591A-10

From looking around it seems that this is the ecu number from a Tracer 2016. The plot thickens.***
I guess my question becomes. What can cause this headlight circuit to fail? Is it simply a production problem? Or is there a risk of buying a working one, and then pop goes another ecu? 

The bike does have some extras added to it as well. A Quickshifter and auxillary fog lights from SW Motec, When I checked wiring for fog lights it seems pretty okay. It looks like it is just plugged into one of the aux attachments behind the dash. There is also a switch on the dash.
My questions further are, these shouldn't be causing the headlight malfunction right? because they are on other circuits?******

16 hours ago, skipperT said:

What do you mean by digital tag? Can you snap a picture of it? I’m not familiar with that type of immobilizer set up… someone from your country may need to chime in, or you may need to contact the dealer for info. 

In Canada, no special tool required that I’m aware of, except that red key. There’s a specific sequence of key cycles on/off with the red key which puts the ECM into “learn” mode. The other keys are then “taught” to the ECM/immobilizer unit by inserting them and waiting until they are recognized. 

the process is laid out in the service manual for (say) R6/R1 and FJR1300, and super tens( I think?). Don’t recall if the R7 has it or not (probably). I think the cruiser models (venture?) use a different type of Fob system that I’m not familiar with….

-Skip

well this is the little tag, I imagine it shows the corresponding code or so? 

But I also have the coveted red key. It seems from the Manual that even with the immobilizer I can still just reteach it eh? 

16 hours ago, skipperT said:

2 hours ago, skipperT said:

Hey! There you go, progress!

-yes, that is correct. 

-probably, but also maybe not. It doesn’t rule out 100% that the lack of a ground being (not) provided by the ECM is due to an issue with the ECM itself. My guess is that’s what it is, but there’s a chance it’s a connection problem at the ECM.

look at it this way: you’re going to have to pull the tank to replace the ECM anyway, so do it now and check those wires for continuity and check the pin and plug also. If it turns out that it is the ECM the bike is already apart and all you need to do is install a new component and reassemble. Easy peasy.

-good questions: If you HAVE the Red Key (master immobilizer key) then I think all you need is ECM replaced and reprogrammed to recognize your keys. If you DON’T have the red key, AND your bike has the immobilizer type of ignition switch, this repair is going to be considerably more expensive. (Ugghhh). If you have standard black keys, and NO immobilizer ignition switch, ECM replacement is all that’s required. 

ECM’s from 2015 and 2016 FJ models should work. 2017’s probably won’t, or may work to an extent but not function correctly, etc. if you purchase a 2017 ECM it’s a dice roll, essentially.  (I’d be curious to know what you find if that’s the path you take!)

-Skip

Okay, I will pull the tank and test the above. Lets just hope its a bad pin. 

I have the digital tag on the key so I guess just the ecu is needed.

In the case that I need to replace the ecu and reprogram, Is reprogramming something that I can do myself? Or does it require specialized tools?

9 hours ago, skipperT said:

Nice post, @dazzler24 Good info.

I tested my bike as well.  

1- With the 6P connector UNPLUGGED, and bike RUNNING, moving the Hi/Low beam switch will ILLUMINATE the High beam indicator.  @cantin posted that his High Beam indicator never lights up. This again points to a fault on the ECM side of the circuit. (You noticed this too, Daz)

2- Checking the Voltage readings with 6P UNPLUGGED and ENGINE OFF, KEY ON at the 6P terminals of the connector returns ~12V on Y/Bk and Y depending on the Headlight switch position. Interestingly enough, they are OPPOSITE of what you would think (meaning, voltage present on the OPPOSITE wire lead that the switch is selecting, if that makes sense. This also agrees with your findings I think, Daz)

3- the most telling number that I found, IMHO - with 6P connector UNPLUGGED and BIKE RUNNING at idle, Checking Resistance with 1 meter lead connected to BATTERY GROUND and the other meter lead to Y/Bk for one test and Y for the other test on the 6P connector terminals gave me a CONTINUITY TO GROUND reading, meaning around 0.315 Ohms of resistance. Selecting the Hi Beam or Low beam position on the switch must be done and then probing the corresponding wire. I was trying to figure out a way to see if the ECM was indeed switching ground. If I'm interpreting the test results correctly it verifies further that the ECM provides ground on the Y/Bk and Y wires to complete the circuit.

4- The last thing I discovered is that I damaged a terminal of my 6P connector 😔. With everything connected back together, if I press the 6P connector Upwards gently while the bike is idling - my headlight flickers. So I've now caused a bad pin fit on one of the terminals.  I don't have my Safety Torx sockets at home (probably a T20 or T25 maybe?) nor do I have a super bright flashlight, so I'll have to repair this more properly down the road. I attempted to remove the terminal from the 6P connector after I found the issue but don't have the right pick, so it will have to wait. I was using the smallest safety pin I could find to probe the 6P connector terminals and not damage anything, but probably caused this when I attempted to REMOVE the pin for the Y/Bk wire from the 6P connector before giving up and plugging everything back in to make sure everything still worked. (that bugger is in there, but now it will HAVE to come out so that I can snug up the pin fit of that terminal.)

*sigh, facepalm*

anyway Cantin - trying plugging everything back in, fire up the bike - and gently push the 6P and 4P connectors upward and downward slightly (toward and away from the headlamp assy) to see if your headlight LEDS flicker to life. Who knows what testing or probing occurred before your ownership? you could also find a needle or very small safety pin and insert it into and gently remove it from the terminals in each connector. There should be a VERY SLIGHT drag upon removal if the pin fit is tight. 

and by small, I mean a thinner diameter than the smallest paperclip you can find. THAT small.

In summary - While bike is running at idle, If your Hi beam Doesn't light up (even with 6p unplugged), AND you can't see any resistance change on either the Y or Y/Bk wire when checking between it and ground (mind your LH Switch position) meaning that your meter stays at oL or 1 when in the ohms position. AND pushing gently on the 6P and 4P connectors when everything is back together and connected and the engine is idling produces no light output and you have 12V on the Green wires and good ground on black...

I'd find an ECM to swap to your bike to confirm diagnosis, or just buy one from a dealer or eBay, whatever your pleasure is...

let us know,

-Skip

Well. 
I jumped ground from yellow/black and black wires going into 6 pin using two needles, and low and behold, the low beam flashed on.

I assume that because I read 12v on both yellow and yellow black (depending on HL switch) and no high beam indicator that, in fact, there is no ground being supplied by the ecu?? 

Does that then, rule out it being caused by a faulty connector between the harness and the ecu and only leave the option of it being a problem within the ecu itself?

If I need to exchange the ecu and lock set. How specific is the 2015 euro version? Could I by chance also find another model year? or does that have negative implication?

 

5 hours ago, dazzler24 said:

Not wanting to hijack @skipperThelpful thread as after having a look at the circuit diagram in a service manual, I respectfully believe that his steps in diagnosis are spot on and he has much knowledge with these machines.  But as you've asked for suggestions here's my offering -

1. When you were checking for output to the LED headlights, did you or can you check that you are getting a high beam indicator lamp come up (when switched to high beam of course) on the display panel (61 arrowed in the wiring drawing)?  Once again, only when the motor is running and the headlamps are plugged in.

2. If yes then that would(should) indicate that you are getting a valid signal from the ECU to the Headlamp Control Unit (HCU) and hence rule the ECU out as the problem.

3. If the answer is no then it could be two things - the headlamp switch or wiring through it is faulty however the low beam should still work as the wiring bypasses the switch completely OR the signal from the ECU is not getting through = Faulty ECU or faulty connection to ECU.

I would be removing the tank so you can access the ECU, 1st ensure that the ECU plugs are all the way home- push firmly (don't laugh as there have been more than one that have been plugged home but not quite and hence some pins not touching creating all sorts of confusion!)

If ECU plugs are confirmed firmly home, proceed to now remove the plugs and find that Y/B wire and ensure that it has not backed out of its mounting position. i.e. push pull it (gently) from the back side to see if it wants to come out of the plug.  If so then hopefully you've found your problem and can push it home, seat it properly and hence a cheap fix.

If not then it would appear that you have either a faulty ECU (you don't want that) or a problem HCU given that you report no voltage output toward the LED headlights when all the inputs are reported as nominal - as long as the above is true. i.e - signal on the LO and HI beam inputs after your tests.

Sidenote - The headlamp control switch on the handlebars could be checked for continuity but looking at the wiring diagram only the hibeam signal wire is routed through there and the lowbeam wiring bypasses the switch entirely straight to the HCU.  I know there's a low beam marking on the switch but I'm assuming that's just for clarity.

Hope this is of some help.  The skipper is your goto man at the end of the day.

Good luck.

Thanks man!

So I again tested while running and I can confirm that there is 'no headlight high beam symbol' coming up on the dash when running, not in pass or in high beam position.
Also there is no low/high beam shining during that test.


Also a few questions.
To prevent having to dismantle half the bike to take the tank off, is there any way to test the HCU to see if it is the problem? The guy I bought it from did say that he tried a replacement HCU and that didn't solve the problem. He suspected then that it was the headlight, but I have all but discounted what he has said and would rather check myself. 

Also is there anyway to check for continuity between the yellow and yellow/black wire that come from the ecu? I dont really understand the electronics of this 'input' but I assume it more or less signals the HCU for which output to send, high or low beam. Is there a way with a multimeter to test if we are getting any signal from the ecu? If needed I will take off the tank and do the above mentioned. 

Or is the diagnostic move now to jump ground to yellow/black and see if we get a low beam? What are the risks involved with this and how do one actually jump the ground without having to open a wiring sheath?

TIA

Cantin 

On 1/28/2022 at 10:53 AM, glaschu said:

Jumping into trying to (maybe destructively) opening the headlight unit seems premature here. There must be separate supplies to the unit for the daytime running lights, the dipped beam and the headlight. It would make sense to check that these go live when they're supposed to first. Or if you have documentation of the connector pins on the headlamp unit you could try applying 12V manually (a nice current limited supply would reduce the possibility of things going pop if ypu get connections wrong). But probably first - have you checked all the bike fuses?

yea I decided to pull back and do some checks first.

But Im not so savvy when it comes to electronics. I have a multimeter at my disposal and a soldering iron. But I am by no means an electronic wizard. Does anyone know what the output of the Light Control Unit should be? Can I test it effectively with a multimeter? 

@skipperT seems to suggest to check the continuity of the the light switch, so that is my next task I suppose, Im hoping to not have to take off too many more panels and not to have to dig too deep to find where it attaches to wiring harness. 

Any suggestions are appreciated. 

also the fuse 7.5a for headlight was fine, I visually inspected it and it was not popped and also I tested it for continuity and it was fine 

@skipperT

So, as the stuff before mentioned was taken at the word of the guys in the shop I figured I would check for myself. 

Going into the LCU, both green wires read more than 12v on the multimeter with engine running (also each were tested to both black ground wires) and about 11.8 with engine off.

After that I figured I would take my probs and see what came out of the LCU. I tested it in every combination, motor running motor off, high, low beam and pass. Each side of the LCU left or right reads 0.22Vs.......


This differs from what the guy from the shop said. I dont know if that changes the strategy for diagnosis or not. 
Also how would you suggest I jump the ground? Also how deep in is the connection where the LH switch attaches to the main harness? also should I test for continuity between the harness and the switch lead? or where exactly do you mean I should test for continuity?

TIA
Cantin 

18 minutes ago, cantin said:

YIKKESSS! I hope not. 

No unfortunately I don't. Does anyone have a pdf they can link me? 2015 European Spec Tracer.

I'll wait then before ordering the new assembly. 

Thanks, Cantin

I did find a PDF of the service manual. I looked at the wiring diagram but also some of the troubleshooting. 

"Faulty Lighting or Signaling System
 Headlight does not come on
-Faulty dimmer/pass switch
- Too many electrical accessories
- Hard charging
-Improperly grounded circuit
- Poor contacts (main or light switch)
- Faulty headlight assembly"

 

YIKKESSS! I hope not. 

No unfortunately I don't. Does anyone have a pdf they can link me? 2015 European Spec Tracer.

I'll wait then before ordering the new assembly. 

Thanks, Cantin

1 hour ago, betoney said:

I cant offer much in the way of technical info of disassembly or repairing the unit.  In the photo, the green circled area is the running light that comes on with the turn of the key, the red circled area is the main lamp and ONLY works when the engine is running and then only one has low beam so even 'working correctly', only one will be illuminated when the engine is running while low beam is selected.

yes. That is correct.
The problem is not that we have one side on at a time.
It is simply that there is no main beam, high or low beam. Not while Running, idle, off, day or night. 

From what I understand the light controller unit sends current into the main beam led's. But neither side seems to be responding to current. 

lets see if anyone else has some insights 

@skipperT

the light control unit under the assembly. Is what I mean by modulator.

Yes also when running there is no low or high beam. There is 12v coming out of each pin on the light control unit, also tried another light control unit and still no success. I have removed the entire assembly now, to have a look. Any suggestions before replacing ?

running lights work but everything powered by the supply entering the back of the unit has no response.

Hello all,

So admittedly I bought a tracer 900 2015 with a nonworking headlight. Figured I scored a deal enough to replace it and still have a nice bike. In my investigations I have found that the assembly needs to be replaced. But I figured before committing to finding a used one, I would check here if anyone knows some valuable secrets.

From what I understand there are two power source, 1 for running lights on the top bar. On my unit these work. Although the low and high beam do not. I checked the modulator and from all for pins coming out of it my voltage meter reads 12vs so I have decided it must be something inside the unit itself. Does anyone have experience with this. Or experience opening the assembly itself? Could it be so simple as connectors dislodging from the circuit inside? Is it reasonable to open the assembly itself? 
 

any information will be apprieciated

On 4/1/2020 at 4:22 AM, skipperT said:

Ok so as mentioned earlier: engine HAS to be running!

Check your fuse first, connections second. Have you Or anyone else done any work to the bike recently? Did you just wash it?

operate the Hi/Lo switch rapidly, does that cause them to flicker on? (Dirty switch)  have you wired ANYTHING into the bike that’s not factory? 

I have some troubleshooting info I can PM you beyond this. Lmk. 

-Skip

Hey mate,
I am having a similar issue.
Headlight is getting 12v after the modulator. But only my running lights are on. No low or high beam. Also with all the switches rapidly switched still nothing.
Any suggestions? I am trying to avoid replacing the whole assembly.