Rear Shock help needed

[smifff]

Looking for some experienced help please,
 
I have a Wilbers rear shock and Forks by Matt intermediate cartridge kit with .9 springs. The front is great, no issues there although it's interesting how changes to the rear effect the front.
I sometimes think I should go with .95 springs due to brake dive but the sag is right and they rarely bottom which I guess says they're fine.
 
The Wilbers is the 640 with remote preload adjustment.
I'm 220 - 230 lbs ready to ride.
 
The Wilbers is fitted with a, 130 n/mm or 740 lbs/inch or 13.2 kg/mm, which ever language you use, spring.
I believe the standard spring is 10 n/mm or 10 kg/mm or 560 lbs/inch.
The issue is that the rear is too harsh over small sharp bumps, rolling bumps and big hits are pretty good.
Even with the heavy spring I occasionally bottom it out although this is on some very rough roads. With sag, bare bike hardly moves on the spring when I have rider sag at 30 - 35 mm. 
Interestingly the shock is rebound adjustable only but the adjuster actually adjust both compression and rebound, when I think the compression feels good I have too little rebound and the bike kicks, when the rebound feels right there's too much compression and the shock becomes harsh. There is no middle ground.
The standard shock isn't too bad, preload 2 from max and rebound 1/2 a turn from closed gives me correct sag and a reasonably well controlled ride, could be better but not too bad. 
 
My confusion is that there are two Wilbers dealers here, each with a different fix and a third well respected shop who is saying sell it and buy this Yacugar triple clicker.
 
Shop 1 says, spring is more than likely correct, Wibers typically use firmer springs and control them with their valving, bring it in and I'll revalve it.
 
Shop 2 says, spring is way too hard, I'll sell you a new spring then everything will be ok.
 
So, which of the above answers is correct? and why?
 
If I have to do both, that will cost over half the price of the new Yacugar. 
 
Should I just buy the Yacugar (essentially Hyperpro) and if so what spring should I spec it with?

[smifff]

To further confuse things the shop selling the Yacugar says the Tracer is oversprung from the factory and I should be using a 8.5 or 9 kg/mm spring.
 
So I have three different shops with three different views on spring rates plus Wilbers originally fitted the 13 kg/mm

[Cruizin]

Looking for some experienced help please, 
I have a Wilbers rear shock and Forks by Matt intermediate cartridge kit with .9 springs. The front is great, no issues there although it's interesting how changes to the rear effect the front.
I sometimes think I should go with .95 springs due to brake dive but the sag is right and they rarely bottom which I guess says they're fine.
 
The Wilbers is the 640 with remote preload adjustment.
I'm 220 - 230 lbs ready to ride.
 
The Wilbers is fitted with a, 130 n/mm or 740 lbs/inch or 13.2 kg/mm, which ever language you use, spring.
I believe the standard spring is 10 n/mm or 10 kg/mm or 560 lbs/inch.
The issue is that the rear is too harsh over small sharp bumps, rolling bumps and big hits are pretty good.
Even with the heavy spring I occasionally bottom it out although this is on some very rough roads. With sag, bare bike hardly moves on the spring when I have rider sag at 30 - 35 mm. 
Interestingly the shock is rebound adjustable only but the adjuster actually adjust both compression and rebound, when I think the compression feels good I have too little rebound and the bike kicks, when the rebound feels right there's too much compression and the shock becomes harsh. There is no middle ground.
The standard shock isn't too bad, preload 2 from max and rebound 1/2 a turn from closed gives me correct sag and a reasonably well controlled ride, could be better but not too bad. 
 
My confusion is that there are two Wilbers dealers here, each with a different fix and a third well respected shop who is saying sell it and buy this Yacugar triple clicker.
 
Shop 1 says, spring is more than likely correct, Wibers typically use firmer springs and control them with their valving, bring it in and I'll revalve it.
 
Shop 2 says, spring is way too hard, I'll sell you a new spring then everything will be ok.
 
So, which of the above answers is correct? and why?
 
If I have to do both, that will cost over half the price of the new Yacugar. 
 
Should I just buy the Yacugar (essentially Hyperpro) and if so what spring should I spec it with?

 
I would at least put in a call to @stoltecmoto and add his opinion to @pattonme Both of em own and ride FJ's and FZ's. They both know yamaha extremely well and @stoltecmoto has done some real exotic set ups on Fz's and FJ's.
 

[fj09chris]

With sag, bare bike hardly moves on the spring when I have rider sag at 30 - 35 mm.  

Spring is too soft.  PERIOD.

[xlxr]

I weigh 270 lbs in gear, you can add another 15 lbs with skid plate, tools etc. I have Ohlins YA 535 shock revalved by Norwest Suspension with 625 lb/in spring. It takes a 2 foot bump to get it to bottom out, which is the way I like it because I occasionally ride some rough roads.
 
You're spring rate is too stiff for solo, you might as well try a lighter spring and see how the dampening feels, but will probably need to change dampening.
 
Reduce compression damping to zero, put a zip tie on the shock shaft and see if you can get it to bottom out over the biggest bump you ever hit. If it does not bottom out, either your spring has too high a rate, or too much high speed compression dampening.
 
 
Rider sag should be a lot closer to 1 to 1 1/4", I forget the exact number, but rider sag should be 1/3 to 1/4 total travel.  It is also possible spring is mounted with too much preload on the manual adjuster.

[smifff]

Thanks for your responses and the pm, I really appreciate the help.
 
xlxr, that's particularly the sort of info I'm looking for.
 
I've emailed Wilbers asking if they have a revised opinion too.
 
Does anyone on here have a Hyperpro fitted?
 
If so could you share your spring rate and weight please,
 
Thanks again for the responses so far

[pattonme]

I'm 220 - 230 lbs ready to ride.
 
The Wilbers is fitted with a, 130 n/mm or 740 lbs/inch or 13.2 kg/mm, which ever language you use, spring.
I believe the standard spring is 10 n/mm or 10 kg/mm or 560 lbs/inch.

 
stock spring (for 150'ish lb rider) is ~95N/mm (550lb/in) You should be running more like a 115N/mm (650lb/in).
Springs are cheap - $70-110. What is the ID of the spring? Between Eibach, Penske, Ohlins and Hyperpro the right spring can be found. I suspect the reason you ended up with the 130 is because they don't have a 115 nor a 120 in their catalog and went with the next one up.
 
Putting a lot of preload into a soft spring isn't a good idea, but in this case it's a whole lot better than giving you a spring so vastly out of range to the high side.
 
The needle is intended primarily for rebound but oil flows both ways thru the same orifice so it's dual-acting. By your description the compression stack is built too stiff. You're looking at replacing the spring and taking a couple shims out of the comp face of the piston.

[smifff]

pattonme,
 
Thanks, I know you're busy and appreciate your thoughts,
 
Spring ID is 59mm and it's 150mm in free length.
 
I have heard that 59 is unusual with 57 being the norm?
The spring collars reach inside the spring ID so either i find a replacement with 59 ID or I'll have to have to machine the originals (not keen in part due to the remote preload adjuster) or find adapters, also not ideal.
 
Do you know who has a 115nm, 150 long spring with 59mm ID?
 
Thanks again
 

[stuna]

We have rode our stock bike for the first time .2 up ,about 400lbs .we only bottomed out once.in a large dip .we did 1500 miles.surprise d how well it worked
 

[pattonme]

59 is going to be mighty hard to find without going to the OEM. But you can get a 2.5" (63mm) and then put in a reducer to size it back down to ~59.

[smifff]

more info to follow,
 
went to suspension shop today, after a conversation about what I was experiencing he came to the same conclusion as pattonme, 115 nm spring going in and softening of the compression stack.
 
I will update in a couple of weeks.
 
As a way by the way the 461 Wilbers, the one with the remote reservoir and compression adjustment, will fit the tracer. Wilbers don't list it as they don't have an answer to fitting the remote reservoir, plenty of people on here have devised ways to fit remote reservoirs so it can be done.
 
The 460 can be upgraded to a 461, if these changes don't work, that's next.

[smifff]

An update,
 
Got the shock back,
 
Spring is now 110 nm, stock is 110 nm, Wilbers delivered 130 nm.
Compression "stack" was reduced by pretty much 20%.
 
Since reinstall I've only done a couple of short rides, so far so good, there's a couple of corners near home that if I hit them just right (wrong) bikes get out of shape, it's working well so far.
Interestingly the shock as returned from the tuner, I took him the shock only, removed and installed myself, has the correct sag already dialled in, I'm impressed.
As a side note, I think the FJ chassis is fairly good, it performs better with unsuitable suspension, for me, than some other bikes I've had or ridden with tuned suspension.
 
 

[greg1]

If you still have front end dive problems. add 1 oz fork oil each side. That will stiffen the last part of the stroke and not affect the first
part.

[eeetea]

If you still have front end dive problems. add 1 oz fork oil each side. That will stiffen the last part of the stroke and not affect the first 
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Not much to add for the OP, but interested in this.  However, being on this side of the Atlantic, when you say 1oz, do you mean Fluid Ounce? ie roughly, 28.4131 ml ? 
Might just try that, but might be easier to put the correct amount in from the outset.
 
 
 

[pattonme]

10cc is approx 9mm of fluid height. stock oil height is 170mm so adding 28ml would move that a whole lot closer to 150mm which is as high as you should go. Personally I think 160-165 is the better number. But 'dive' is not really a matter of fluid level really. It controls the absolute value of how far the forks move, but not the rate at which they do so.