Wintersdark

On 9/27/2023 at 8:22 AM, Ride365 said:

 

Running premium in this bike is certainly painful at the pump with these intentional gas prices, never dreamed I'd spend $40 worth of fuel on a good day ride. 😔

Sure, it sucks, but if you look at the difference in cost between a slightly less fuel efficient flashed bike and a more fuel efficient but less fun unflashed bike...  I'd pay the extra dollar, personally

3 hours ago, Ride365 said:

I still have no discernable noise on my 20 with almost 16k miles, maybe I'm in the clear?

The original basket was replaced either in 2020 or 2021; possibly even midway through 2020 model production.  The new basket (which is what you're getting if you replace the existing one) is gronk-free.

So, maybe you're just lucky, maybe you've got one of the updated baskets already.  

Gronk is VERY evident under deceleration, and low speed/low throttle/low rpm riding.  If you don't know if you have it, you almost certainly don't (or at least, it doesn't matter because it doesn't bother you). 

It does take some time to develop, however.  In my experience and from what I've read researching it in MT09 circles, it definitely does before 16k miles however.  It actually happens pretty fast, starting inside around 8000 miles IIRC.

10 hours ago, The Cheese said:

Thank you for actually explaining it. This is my first chain bike that will be sticking around for awhile. I'm just trying to ask questions to understand what's going on. Opinions on chain maintenance seems to be widely varied.

I've only put about 600 miles on my Tracer so far. When I got it the chain was pretty wet. The area you would expect to have lube flung to was covered in lube. To the point of it dripping off the bike. I'd like to keep that from happening again.

Hah my first couple bikes (well, not my FIRST bike, but basically all of them from the 90's to 2018) where shaft drive.  I treated the first bike's chain like absolute garbage, and it actually broke and fell off while I was riding, though thankfully non-destructively.  I think these decades of shaft drive bikes really contribute to my love of auto-oilers - I just couldn't be bothered to clean and lube a chain on a weekly (or faster!) basis.

Chain maintenance is a huuuuuge topic and everyone has their own take on it.   Frankly, as long as you keep it clean and lubricated, it's actually pretty hard to go wrong, and it's more just a matter of what sorts of things are an issue for you personally.

Cleaning, as long as you're not using something that will actually degrade the orings (not really a problem anymore, as basically any cleaner or even wd40(gasp! heresy!)/diesel/kerosene is fine) then it just doesn't matter much. 

But for lubing?  Holy hell, there's so many options, all with pros and cons.  Generally speaking they all protect the chain just as well, but...

• Gear oil, the oldschool favourite, is super cheap and very effective, but it's a very thick oil that will get flung off in larger splatters.  I suspect this is what was on your chain.  I actually used this myself for quite a while, to good results, but splatter is definitely an issue (way worse than an auto-oiler with a fine mineral oil).  Nothing stays on the chain, as it's just flung off. 
• Chain wax lasts a very long time and works super well, but it's very sticky so in a sandy or dusty environment it can be counterproductive, holding abrasive sand in and making your chain look dirtier.  If you live in a wetter environment where there's not a lot of dust and sand, however, it's absolutely awesome for low maintenance long term protection.  
• Everything else tends to fall somewhere on a spectrum between the two and frankly, any product designed for motorcycle chains will work just as well with the caveat that there's always pros and cons.  You can't really go wrong, though, just find the one that works best for you.

I really like how the lightweight mineral oil in my auto-oiler works, but you couldn't use it manually as it just wouldn't last long enough.  

For auto oilers... I mean, everyone has their favorites.  Frankly, all of the automatic ones do a good enough job.  Scotoilers are fantastic but expensive and require electric (or worse, imho) vacuum tie ins.  Electric is fine, I wouldn't get a vacuum operated one simply because that introduces failure points.  Nobody likes diagnosing vacuum leaks.  The upside is that you can dial in a specific setting that (AFAIK) remains constant regardless of termperature.  My Tutoro's have been 100% bulletproof and reliable, and other than being physically attached to the bike have no electrical or vacuum connections.  They operate on vibration, so they're running when they bike is moving and not when it's stopped.  The downside is that they use a manual screw valve to set flow rate, so you need to seasonally adjust it (or it'll flow fast in the summer and slow in the winter due to oil viscosity). 

There are others that work on wind pressure - they seem like they'd work fine as well, but would have slightly more fiddly installation as they'd need to be exposed to wind.  There are others that aren't really even auto oilers but rather manual - you turn a dial to dispense a bit of oil.  They'd work, but seem to defeat the purpose IMHO. I'd forget to do it.  

There's no performance gain, and Yamaha insists that the old clutch isn't going to fail due to GRONK, it's just some play that ends up there.

So, fixing it is purely "cosmetic" if you will - if you're not sure if you have it or not, don't have a problem with it... *shrugs* don't bother.  I mean, my old basket is still on my desk, it looks totally fine.  It has play between basket and gear, but there's no visible *damage*.  It's just the the rubber bumpers inside degrade and shrink causing that play.  It won't break, though.

In your case, though, I'd do it to get the slipper clutch at the same time, because slipper clutches are amazing.  But that's just me

16 hours ago, The Cheese said:

The computer on my bike is about 10% too high when calculation MPG. It's also about 10% low the gallons used.

I wouldn't let the lower mpg keep you from getting a tune. I've never ridden this bike with out a tune so I can't compare. But I know with a tune it's awesome. If I have to pay 15-20% more at fill up, so be it. Totally worth it.

I'll try to be more conservative with the next two tanks and see what I get.

To be honest, I can't imagine turning down a flash due to decreased fuel economy.  Mostly just that in the extreme case that you *need* that bit of range (where?) you can carry a spare fuel bag/can anyways, but aside from that these bikes are super cheap to ride regardless. 

I mean, sure, it's fun to work out the fuel economy but.. eh.  It's really not very important.

That's just me though.

16 hours ago, The Cheese said:

Does that not sling lube everywhere? Seems like it would be a real mess.

Not nearly like you'd think.

Yes, the underside of your chain guard is gonna be gunky, but the mechanics of how an oiler (properly) works are not what you'd think.  If you just drop oil randomly onto a chain, it's going to go *everywhere* and make a huge mess.

But you want your oiler set up to *very slowly* let a very small amount of oil out onto your sprocket. Capillary action aided by centrifugal force carries that out to the teeth of the sprocket and around both sides of the teeth even though you're only putting oil on the outside of the sprocket - dual application nozzles are a waste of time.

At this point, it's not drips of oil, it's a very thin film.  Those same forces spread that oil film across the chain, covering all surfaces equally.

Because it's not drips, it's a super thin film, as particles of matter stick to the chain they're carried outwards and fall off, but they're not thrown off so that they splatter all over your bike; there's not enough oil on them. 

Without particles of crap, the excess oil basically aerosolized as such absurdly small amounts let go at a time, and drag pulls them away from the bike as they took lack sufficient mass to be thrown onto the bike.

So, *as long as your oiler is set up correctly* it won't make a mess on your bike.  If you just drop drips of oil onto the chain, or if you turn the feed rate up high, then it'll make a mess - that's user error though.

In my case above, I deliberately turned it up too high to force clean a muddy chain.  It did get some gunk onto the bike, which was also covered in tons of mud.  Thus, when I got home, I power washed the mud off the rest of the bike but didn't need to worry about the chain (which I won't power wash of course) as it was already clean.

But day to day?  No, it doesn't make a mess of your bike.  If you'd like, I can take pictures of my Tracer and show you - it's got about 1500kms on it since it was last washed, so you can see what happens.

On 9/19/2023 at 3:07 PM, piotrek said:

Hmm... crappy fueling, crappy suspension etc... ya know, all the "bad-boy" stuff. 

"Character"

I'll add, as a "couple months in update" - my Tracer is still nice and tight, totally GRONK free.  Never a moment of regret in swapping clutch baskets.

On 9/24/2023 at 5:24 PM, The Cheese said:

I might be opening a can of worms here...but why a chain oiler? Does it really need that much oil constantly dribbled on it? It's a sealed chain after all. Clean it once and awhile and oil very occasionally and shouldn't it be fine? 

So, as a devoted auto oiler fan, here are the reasons:I

f you ride a lot (particularly in bad weather), you need to clean and lube your chain a lot.  Where one rider may do that a couple times a year, I was doing it weekly.  That got annoying.  

Related to the above, if you're on a long road trip it's really nice to just not worry about it at all - your chain will be fine.

if you clean and lube based on miles travelled, you'll get more chain life out of an oiler because the chain is always clean and freshly lubed.  There's no drying out process, no getting dirty, no period just before you clean and lube again where your chain is wearing more.

it protects your sprockets too.

As @Lone Wolf says above, you're using a low viscosity oil that carries debris off your chain vs. Sticking dust to the chain.  I took my Tenere 700 to an adventure rally weekend.  It saw some 300kms of dust, dirt, mud, and river water. It was a *mess*. When it was time to come home, I turned up the feed on my Tutoro for the ride home.  When I pulled in at home, my chain looked brand new again, spotlessly clean. 

On 9/20/2023 at 5:41 PM, 2and3cylinders said:

If you want torque you should have gone up to in the rear Not down in the front Still plenty of top end

You don't need the mileage you get better than the gen 1 anyway which rip just fine Without all the do dads

Up in rear is exactly the same as down in the front; it's just that each front tooth is ~2.7 rear teeth (iirc; more than 2, less than 3)

On 9/20/2023 at 5:27 PM, BostonDanny said:

I also am going down one tooth on the front sprocket . 

Do not do this.

It will break the cruise control.

The most you can change the gearing while preserving functional cruise control is +2 on the rear sprocket; any further and the cruise will not stay active.  I've been down this road personally, as have others on the forum.

Quote

I know some people will say well why didn’t you just go for the mt09 if you wanted the torque ; but I needed comfort first priority becusze I recently had two spine fusions

They have the same engines, same gearing, same power curve.  However, the 2nd gen have a longer swingarm than the MT09, allowing you to put more of that power down before you lift the front.  

The Tracer is also a bit larger, and if you're a bigger person it's a lot more comfortable.  

2 hours ago, betoney said:

I just got back from an overnight trip and wanted to monitor fuel economy related to temperature. 

The mornings were cold, between 42-46F and there was moderate fog.  I set the cruise control at 70mph and reset the fuel average and rode on open highway for a solid 90 minutes with no traffic or throttle fluctuations and was getting 37-39mpg.

The afternoon was warm, 75-77F and I repeated the same ultra-scientific test.  With the higher temperature and less dense air, 70mph was reading between 48-51mpg on the open highway.

I have checked the readings at elevation as well, I get significantly better fuel economy in the mountains at higher elevations vs. near sea level.  On a hot afternoon at elevation I have seen a tank average in the mid 50's mpg under mixed riding conditions, not just cruising at a steady 70mph.

 

Wow, that's a huge range.

On 8/16/2023 at 6:37 PM, banditryder said:

I have a 2017 FJ-09 that I'd like to keep and have to sell. Adding this would add significantly to the "keep" column on the tally sheet. How did you like it?

Sorry I missed this.

I don't have one on my Tracer currently, it's been on the list for a while but it keeps getting pushed back for other stuff as I was outfitting my Tenere.  It's getting one this weekend.

With that said, I know people who have them on Tracers, and I had one on my MT07.  I absolutely love them.

(what, don't you transport cheesecakes on your motorcycles?)

They sound amazing, sound great, look great, are made of good quality materials and well put together with great welds... and are cheap.  What's not to like?  

This winter for my Tracer for sure, though.  I ride in the winter, including in slushy brine, and while that's fine for most of the bike my stock headers are absolutely trashed now, so it's definitely time. 

Edit: Pictured is the 230mm Carbon Fiber GP Style w/ Blued Tip.  It looks awesome, but it is loud. I kept it with the baffle in, which was fairly loud but not pain inducing.  Without the baffle it's like 100db+.  For reference, the 300+mm cans are significantly quieter (they have a larger diameter as well as more length), though still louder than stock.  400mm with a baffle in is roughly as loud as stock.

On 9/5/2023 at 8:50 AM, Yaman said:

Hi. 

I have a question about  chainoiler. Im thinking of order a tutoro oiler and why do the nozzle have to be at the rear sprocket , cant it be just  behind the front sprocket cover so the oil will drip on the chain . This Way it will be almost invisible . 

So, you can install it on the front sprocket, but you don't want to drip onto the chain.  An important part of how they function is capillary action and centrifugal force causing the oil to spread across the sprocket then across the entirety of the chain from the inside (relative to it's spinning) so the oil gets to both sides of the chain and moves inside to outside before being eventually flung off.  This results in total chain coverage with minimal oil application.  Dripping onto the chain is just going to get flung off immediately.  Still, you can apply it to the front sprocket in the same way you do to the rear sprocket, by having the nozzle touch the side of the sprocket.  It'll need to be the top side to work most efficiently, but I imagine the bottom would work well enough too. 

This is kind of difficult to set up with the stock cover, YMMV as I haven't attempted it on the Tracer, but I've planned out doing it on my Tenere which has a "screened" (if you will) sprocket cover I can feed the nozzle through. 

1 hour ago, betoney said:

If you find a screen that works well, don’t change it for winter just wear an extra base layer, unless you need the screen protection for heavy rain. 
 

A screen that works well on this bike is kind of like finding a unicorn.  I really like the smaller screen so I don’t change it anymore.  When fall arrives, my summer riding gear gets put away and the winter gear now gets full time use. 

Strong agree.  The stock windscreen is bad and should feel bad, and while it DOES cover more than a small sport screen does (keeping you warmer) simply getting a heated jacket liner is WAY better and doesn't result in head buffeting like the stock screen does.

I went with a smaller screen and swapped the stock screen back for winter riding at first, but now I leave the puig sport screen(like yours) on all the time too, just like @betoney above.  The buffeting sucks, and riding is much, much more comfortable with a small screen.

The reality of these bikes is you either need a barn door, or a sport screen... Or get really lucky trying random windscreens and clip on addons etc.  Windscreens aren't cheap, though, and IMHO you're more likely than not to spend a lot of money trying various windscreens unsuccessfully before you find that unicorn. 

21 hours ago, dazzler24 said:

After @Wintersdark's excellent appraisal of the issue and his glowing 'after' results I had no alternative ( OK, I did really 😜) but to bite the bullet and have now ordered all the 'bits' from Webike Japan.

Do I have the 'GRONK' as described? After some careful riding analysis based on the earlier data, I believe that I do have the early symptoms.

Honest analysis:-

Is it a real problem for me? No - not really! The bike rides fine!

Could I live with it? - Of course I could!

Do I want to live with it?

Now, that's the real question.  For the OCD in me - the answer is if it can be better or improved then NO.

Exactly.  I don't like it but get why Yamaha isn't covering it with the warranty, as the bike does still ride fine, but it's.... Clattery and loose.  And to me, it feels cheap and poorly made, particularly once you start paying attention to it.  And the more attention you pay to it, the more obvious and annoying it feels.

Psychological? To an extent sure, it's real but it's not actually important.  

But a side benefit - if you decide to sell, the bike sounds and feels WAY better once it's done. 

And people think my cold riding is nuts.  I wear a heater!  

It's so brutally hot down there right now... yikes.  Just riding in 32+/roughly 90+ here is rough for me, and is definitely enough to get my normally mostly ATGATT me out of my jacket.  If only wearable AC was more practical than the silly nonsense that currently exists. 

I mean, sure, you ride fast and without a windscreen, but there's a point where you're just in a convection oven.  Was reading an article about people being severely burned by pavement when they trip and fall in Arizona recently.  Nuts. 

12 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

My clutch is noisy as he'll.  Have to check when I installed a 16 XSR slip/assist clutch but probably 40k+ miles ago.  The noise doesn't bother once underway but I have noticed shifting to be getting more difficult but haven't analyzed how, when or why; and usually pass it off to my error rather than a clutch and or transfer issue (worn and tweaked shift forks and shift dogs, erc.).

It's just tough to analyze the swamp during the heat of battle when it's difficult for me to chew gum and walk at the same time.

However, I can manage chewing my Wintermint Orbit while riding to minimize dry mouth.   Like the old Indian (native / indigenous people's) trick of placing a small pebble in the mouth to stimulate salivation.

Now at 60k and wondering if it's time. Regardless that time will have to wait until winder downtime as is other deferred maintenance. 

One thing it doesn't change is ease of shifting (though you may have worn clutch plates as well, but... that shouldn't change shifting either, just slip?) but it can make the shifting less "clunky" when you re-engage the clutch and apply power.  The actual change of gears won't be impacted though, as that's (generally) happening with the clutch disengaged.

11 hours ago, duckie said:

I forgot to mention that the rubber thingie covering the front seat release needs to be removed.

 

Hah yeah, I always forget to mention that because I tossed mine somewhere in my first week of ownership.  Completely forget that it exists

8 hours ago, betoney said:

I cleaned the air filter - again.

This is the amount of hayseed collected in the filter after a 5 day road trip.

Just a suggestion, NEVER follow the manual's recommended service interval, like every year or every 8,000 miles, clean it based on your riding conditions.

Good lord!

Regarding the basket itself once you've got it out, and the "can't feel any play" reported by people earlier:

Check the video above at 3:13 to see it in practice.  Mine was worse than his, 3mm of movement.

But holding it in your hand, you can't get enough torque to see the play.  I can do it by putting the gear into my vice (with nice soft rubber pads, of course) AND using a breaker bar to put a lot of torque on the basket, but it's very tough to move them.  Once moved, it stays moved, though, doesn't bounce back. 

It's that, I think, that causes the real problem.  That getting it to move requires a bunch of force, so it's a second chunk of play that happens abruptly once load is already on the driveline. 

So much smoother running now.  

On 7/28/2023 at 1:49 AM, dazzler24 said:

How many Kms did you have on her Winter?  And it made a significant/noticeable difference?  Apologies if you've mentioned it elsewhere.

~35000kms or so.  It made a *huge* difference, way more than I expected it to.

The clutch rattle in neutral when the clutch is engaged vs. disengaged is significantly muted (but still exists; this isn't a cure for the noisy clutch in neutral).

The removal of just a couple mm of driveline lash has an unbelievably huge impact in ridability - I hadn't realized how bad it had gotten as it'd been a long time coming.  The problem is that the play from the basket takes significant force to move, so it doesn't happen at the same time the normal free play in the driveline gets eaten up.  Instead, it creates a... Thunk? when you switch from hard engine breaking to throttle and back that you feel in the right footpeg.  That's gone entirely.  There's a shuddering sort of noise/feeling/vibration under light maintenance throttle and low rpm - also completely gone.  There's a weird sort of noise under deceleration via engine breaking that's completely gone as well - there's a video about replacing the clutch basket that illustrates this:

But really what's unexpected but ENORMOUS to me is how much *tighter* the whole driveline feels now.  On and off throttle, it feels like a brand new bike.  I honestly didn't realize how loose it had gotten, but I hadn't gone even a block until I stopped in pure amazement, and just experimented with starting and stopping for a bit.  

It's really hard to describe, because when I try to explain it, I feel like it sounds like "Oh like when you tighten a chain" but no, nothing like tight vs. loose chain.  The lag time due to the resistance of the bumpers inside the basket really make it a separate thing.

I was worried, honestly, as $400 is a lot of money for me to spend to (hopefully) fix a problem that's not even REALLY a problem, because the bike rides "fine" with the old clutch basket, right?  But wow.  I wasn't aware of how much of a difference there was between my bike in 2019 when new and right before I changed that basket.  $400 was VERY well spent.

Also, changing it was actually pretty fun, and a good chance to really inspect the clutch innards - which where absolutely fine.

On 7/24/2023 at 2:48 PM, kilo3 said:

@piotrek No i didn't because i'm lazy and mainly my wife's stupid pink bike ruined my winter, but that's another story.

I wussed out and bought the updated basket to hopefully be install this winter but who knows at this point.

My plan is/was to replace with the updated basket, then modify the old with the Hinson bushings set as backup.
never did find full poly dampers.

As I noted in the "what did you do" thread, I recently swapped out my basket.  Really easy job, and in fact on you can reasonably do in about an hour or two, much less with some experience.  And man, does it ever ride a lot better now.  Shocking how much a little play in the basket causes problems

On 7/21/2023 at 8:48 AM, tgas said:

What about SP-Connect?  How do they compare?  I am looking to get one or the other and I don't want to get one and wish I had got the other.  That is what I have you guys for!! 

 

I haven't used them, but they look like they'll have the same general features, phones supported, and such - just a slightly different locking mechanism.  

I haven't noticed yet if they've got a competitor to Quadlock's newer Mag cases - they magnetically bind to mag mounts or use the standard twist lock, are backwards compatible and offer new capabilities.

 For motorcyclists, there's a couple big advantages here.  First, and foremost, the magnet in the case is strong.  Like, *really* strong.  I wouldn't trust my phone to it riding, but you can do things like stick your phone temporarily to your gas tank and know it won't fall off. Or to a refrigerator door, even.  It's handy.  Also, it allows you to do things like just maglock on the wireless battery to recharge when you're off the bike without wires. 

Finally took the Tracer out to give the new clutch basket a shakedown run around town - lots of low speed/low rpm cruising, lots of gearbox work.

The clunking in the right footpeg shifting from engine braking to throttle and the shuddering at low rpm with minimal maintenance throttle is entirely gone.  No more gronky noise on deceleration.  

Most noticeably however, it just feels tighter and more direct.  I feel this is because the slop in the basket is separate from the normal driveline slip - that is eaten up immediately without resistance, whereas the movement in the clutch basket is slower and requires noticeably more force, so it's a clunk that happens independently of any normal chain lash etc. 

Regardless, I'm super happy I changed the basket.  Rides much better now.