Transition/Refresher Training Recommendations? - CO/NM

[humanistfury]

I'm somewhat of a Safety Dweeb.  I'm a true believer in the utility of professional riders' training, both as a refresher at the beginning of the season, and whenever you transition to a substantially different type of motorcycle.  I recently traded in a H-D Sportster for a FJ-09, and now find myself meeting both of those criteria.
 
I'd rather not do the standard "Experienced Riders' Course," as I've done it a few times and don't know how much added benefit I'd get out of it now.  If anyone knows of (or is themselves, for that matter) an experienced, MSF-certified instructor ("Rider Coach," is it?) in southern CO or northern NM, please shoot me a name/link/contact info/whatever you got.  I'm just looking for a few hours of observation and informed critique to get me fully comfortable/familiar with the bike, and to just reinforce the basics of How to Ride a Motorcycle (i.e. "Bad Habit Inoculation").
 
Any/All recommendations are appreciated.  Thanks!

[root]

I've been curious about Total Control classes.  I've read good reviews and they go around the country.  The closest one for me is still 3-4 hour drive each way though.  I would have to do an over night in a hotel to make it practical.  Keith Code's school travels but not to as many spots as the Total Control.  The closest he comes to me is about a 10 hour drive.  I've watched Twist of the Wrist several times now.  It would be nice to take a class and get some professional feedback from the things I've learned from Twist of the Wrist.  Seems as though anything beyond MSF training outside of California is scarce in the states for street bikes.  It's a shame.  There's a ton of riders that could obviously stand to improve out on the streets.  Many are too thick headed to think they need to though and ride around in what amounts to a wife beater and a bandanna.  I'm guessing this is the biggest reason why there is so little market out there for it.  Even the closest Basic Riders Course 2 is a 1.5 hour drive for me.  That is doable for me and I am scheduled to go next weekend.  I am under the mindset, I should be the best safety feature on the bike.  Not the only, but the best.  I can't stop learning until I have achieved this goal.

[humanistfury]

I"ve got very much the same mindset - even said something pretty similar to someone last week about how the rider is the critical "safety feature." Regarding riders being too lazy/arrogant to consider refresher/maintenance training, you're preaching to the choir. The few times I've asked people in person, most of them look at me like I asked if I could volunteer for a few years in a federal penitentiary. Anyhow, I'll definitely check out the Total Control link you sent. Thanks!

[root]

I know what you mean. I've had the same reactions when I told people I was taking a class. Most of my friends and co-workers looked at me like I was crazy. The people organizing the class called to confirm I'd be there. They seemed surprised I already had my endorsement and I wasn't taking it to get my endorsement. I didn't even realize you could take the "experienced" class to get your endorsement. I guess that tells me the caliber of riders that will be in my class.

[vespadaddy]

I'm right there with you. I've been riding for a lot of years, but if the best riders in the world need to train to keep the skills sharp (MotoGP), why should any of us expect to be any different. We're lucky in Mpls. We have a local community college that has a small, very technical track that is often used for police performance driving training. There are 2 local orgs that hold training days there, complete with coaches who will critique your riding and offer tips to improve. It's not really a track day, per say, but a training day. Well worth it, and I'll probably attend one this year.
 

[root]

I'm right there with you. I've been riding for a lot of years, but if the best riders in the world need to train to keep the skills sharp (MotoGP), why should any of us expect to be any different. We're lucky in Mpls. We have a local community college that has a small, very technical track that is often used for police performance driving training. There are 2 local orgs that hold training days there, complete with coaches who will critique your riding and offer tips to improve. It's not really a track day, per say, but a training day. Well worth it, and I'll probably attend one this year.

Jealous.

[rodan]

Go to a trackday where instruction is available. You don't need a supersport, I've seen everything from dirt bikes to Goldwings and HardleyAblesons on the track. A good instructor can watch you and give you pointers to improve your skills whatever you're riding.
 
Another option is a track school, either on your bike or a rental. I've done Code's Superbike School and Reg Pridmore's CLASS school three times each. Code's school is more race oriented, and CLASS is more street oriented, but either will teach you skills that will make you a better and safer street rider. I thought the instruction was more organized and a little higher quality at Code's school, FWIW. Code also has rental bikes, leathers, etc, which makes it easier to travel to.
 
A side benefit is you get to play on fabulous tracks like Laguna Seca, and they are a LOT of fun.
 
Regardless, even if you don't ride a 'track' bike, riding at the track will teach you things that will pay huge benefits on the street.

[jimf]

We're lucky in Mpls. We have a local community college that has a small, very technical track that is often used for police performance driving training. There are 2 local orgs that hold training days there, complete with coaches who will critique your riding and offer tips to improve. It's not really a track day, per say, but a training day. Well worth it, and I'll probably attend one this year.

Some of my riding friends do what they call a "PLP", Parking Lot Practice.  All you need to do is find a big parking lot and get some of those little cones and set up the typical obstacles: Weaves, figure-8s, right-angle turn, last-minute swerve, etc. 
It's helpful that a number of my friends are MSF instructors, so they can watch and give critiques, but any experienced rider is likely to be able to give constructive criticism.
 
One thing I do is practice road skills almost daily: I use things like manhole covers as obstacles to dodge, and pick a stop sign on the commute home from work that I can use for hard stop practice.  Those two skills are immeasurably valuable if you ever ride in traffic.
 
I've been a fan of organized training forever.  The BRC is a great way for a would-be motorcyclist to figure out if they really want to ride a bike before they spend real money, not to mention the endorsement and insurance discounts.  I've taken a couple of ERCs as refreshers and they never fail to find bad habits that crept in over time.  Last time they said I was using engine braking a lot in general riding.  If I'm alone on the road it's fine, but in traffic (we have a lot of dense traffic near Boston) the lack of a brake light is more dangerous.  Best to at least tap the brake to alert anyone behind you.  So, even though I could breeze through the skills, the feedback on technique was valuable.
 
Organized training does have a time and money commitment and I'm not sure it's valuable enough to do every year, and I haven't.  Even so, it's a good idea at least once in awhile.

[root]

We're lucky in Mpls. We have a local community college that has a small, very technical track that is often used for police performance driving training. There are 2 local orgs that hold training days there, complete with coaches who will critique your riding and offer tips to improve. It's not really a track day, per say, but a training day. Well worth it, and I'll probably attend one this year.

Some of my riding friends do what they call a "PLP", Parking Lot Practice.  All you need to do is find a big parking lot and get some of those little cones and set up the typical obstacles: Weaves, figure-8s, right-angle turn, last-minute swerve, etc. 
It's helpful that a number of my friends are MSF instructors, so they can watch and give critiques, but any experienced rider is likely to be able to give constructive criticism.
 
One thing I do is practice road skills almost daily: I use things like manhole covers as obstacles to dodge, and pick a stop sign on the commute home from work that I can use for hard stop practice.  Those two skills are immeasurably valuable if you ever ride in traffic.
 
I've been a fan of organized training forever.  The BRC is a great way for a would-be motorcyclist to figure out if they really want to ride a bike before they spend real money, not to mention the endorsement and insurance discounts.  I've taken a couple of ERCs as refreshers and they never fail to find bad habits that crept in over time.  Last time they said I was using engine braking a lot in general riding.  If I'm alone on the road it's fine, but in traffic (we have a lot of dense traffic near Boston) the lack of a brake light is more dangerous.  Best to at least tap the brake to alert anyone behind you.  So, even though I could breeze through the skills, the feedback on technique was valuable.
 
Organized training does have a time and money commitment and I'm not sure it's valuable enough to do every year, and I haven't.  Even so, it's a good idea at least once in awhile.

I agree once a year over the long term may be overkill and once in a while is good enough. I know many people that are somehow proud they've never attended a class though. I'd really like to do some training that gets me out of a parking lot too. I appreciate what MSF is doing and am taking their class, I just wish there was a track day type school within driving distance of me. I'd like to learn more than weaving through some cones at 10mph.

[jimf]

I know many people that are somehow proud they've never attended a class though.

 
I really don't understand that. Do those people really think they've got nothing to learn? I mean, I've been through the ERC twice now so I know the material and they STILL managed to find stuff I had started doing that was kind of stupid, but which I never really thought about from that perspective.
 

I'd really like to do some training that gets me out of a parking lot too. I appreciate what MSF is doing and am taking their class, I just wish there was a track day type school within driving distance of me. I'd like to learn more than weaving through some cones at 10mph.

 
How far away are they?
 
We have two tracks within 2-3 hours drive of me. Neither is a great track, and Loudon is especially crappy now that part of it is a NASCAR oval, but they're good enough to push to the limit everywhere except top speed. I think the closest really good track is around an 8 hour drive, and someplace like VIR would be around 14. With a family it's hard to make the kind of commitment to go to the far-away tracks.
 
Even though Loudon, the closest track and the only one I've been to, is so close it was effectively two days of commitment. Without a trailer you have to prep the bike in the pits the morning of the track day, and that means getting to the track extra early. Unless I wanted to get up at 4am -- which would leave me exhausted before I ever got onto the track -- that means coming up the day before and staying overnight.
 
While the track day itself wasn't that expensive, $250 if I remember right, by the time all was said and done it was not cheap. On top of the track fee there was $100 for nearby hotel, more for meals, $300 in minor crash damage (broke a peg, ended up having to replace both pegs and a couple of other related things), and I *really* should have bought new tires. Squared-off tires are particularly tricky when you're riding close to the edge, and as luck would have it we got some rain to make it even harder. I will start the day with new tires next time.
 
It was expensive but I'd definitely do it again. I learned more about the bike's dynamics in that one day than I had in half a decade of riding prior, even though most of the day was run pretty slow because of the rain. I've had too many time and money commitments in the years since to do it again, but either this summer or next I'll be doing another for sure.
 
If I lived somewhere like California where there are super-twisty roads with practically no one on them maybe I would learn most of that by simply riding (certainly my 4-day riding trip between SF and Pismo last year was great in that respect) but in New England there are just not that many great roads, too many cars, and too many police -- even before you start considering the ramifications if you screw up and crash. And to get to the roads that are any good is 3-4 hours in each direction, not conducive to frequent visits.
 

[root]

I know many people that are somehow proud they've never attended a class though.

I really don't understand that. Do those people really think they've got nothing to learn? I mean, I've been through the ERC twice now so I know the material and they STILL managed to find stuff I had started doing that was kind of stupid, but which I never really thought about from that perspective. 

I'd really like to do some training that gets me out of a parking lot too. I appreciate what MSF is doing and am taking their class, I just wish there was a track day type school within driving distance of me. I'd like to learn more than weaving through some cones at 10mph.

How far away are they? 
We have two tracks within 2-3 hours drive of me. Neither is a great track, and Loudon is especially crappy now that part of it is a NASCAR oval, but they're good enough to push to the limit everywhere except top speed. I think the closest really good track is around an 8 hour drive, and someplace like VIR would be around 14. With a family it's hard to make the kind of commitment to go to the far-away tracks.
 
Even though Loudon, the closest track and the only one I've been to, is so close it was effectively two days of commitment. Without a trailer you have to prep the bike in the pits the morning of the track day, and that means getting to the track extra early. Unless I wanted to get up at 4am -- which would leave me exhausted before I ever got onto the track -- that means coming up the day before and staying overnight.
 
While the track day itself wasn't that expensive, $250 if I remember right, by the time all was said and done it was not cheap. On top of the track fee there was $100 for nearby hotel, more for meals, $300 in minor crash damage (broke a peg, ended up having to replace both pegs and a couple of other related things), and I *really* should have bought new tires. Squared-off tires are particularly tricky when you're riding close to the edge, and as luck would have it we got some rain to make it even harder. I will start the day with new tires next time.
 
It was expensive but I'd definitely do it again. I learned more about the bike's dynamics in that one day than I had in half a decade of riding prior, even though most of the day was run pretty slow because of the rain. I've had too many time and money commitments in the years since to do it again, but either this summer or next I'll be doing another for sure.
 
If I lived somewhere like California where there are super-twisty roads with practically no one on them maybe I would learn most of that by simply riding (certainly my 4-day riding trip between SF and Pismo last year was great in that respect) but in New England there are just not that many great roads, too many cars, and too many police -- even before you start considering the ramifications if you screw up and crash. And to get to the roads that are any good is 3-4 hours in each direction, not conducive to frequent visits.

The closest class that is not a MSF Basic Rider Course 2 course is 4 hours away from me.  Not feasible for a day trip and would require an over night stay.  I'm pretty sure that's still in a parking lot too, but it does look much more advanced than BRC2.  I may do it at some point.  Come to think of it I do have an Aunt that lives in that area.  I might be able to cut the cost down by staying with her.  There is a track about 3.5 hours away that does track days, but it looks like you are on your own.  No instructors for motorcycle track days.  They offer instructors for cars but I can't find anything for bikes.  I'm not sure how to prep the bike or anything either.  There's days put on by a Ducati dealer and other days that just says Sport Bike Time Track days.  The only information I can find on bikes for the track is, "here's the price, have fun."  No one I know personally has been to a track day.  It looks like they only sell race fuel too.  I'm not sure how that would do in a bike tuned for standard gas.  Is it ok?  I don't know.  It looks like bikes are an afterthought at that track.  It's really promoted to cars but it looks like a couple Ducati dealerships and that "Sport Bike Time Track" place rents out the track and resells the track days.  I may try and do that anyway.  I'd love to be able to practice on a closed circuit anyway.  The closes track with instructors I can find would be over a 12 hour drive each way.  It would need to basically be a vacation to go do it.  I think I'd rather take a week, fly to Vegas and do Code's school when he's at the Vegas track.  Only problem is, what does my wife, who only "tolerates" my biking, do while I spend 2 days at the track?  Same issue with driving 12 hours to do something she could care less about.

[root]

It looks like Sportbike Track Time may be the best option for me.  I finally found the link attached that says they do have instructors there.  I'm finding several tracks on their site that are about 3-3.5 hours away from me give or take a little.  One in Indiana, two in Illinois and two in Michigan.  Does anyone here have experience with them?

[humanistfury]

Your example of the hazards of habitual engine braking in urban/dense traffic is exactly the kind of bad habits I'm trying to identify.  I certainly would've never thought of that myself, but it makes perfect sense and it's easy to remedy.
 
 
Part of the problem is that my wife & I just moved here, so we're still working on getting to know other people to ride (read: "other people, period").  When that does happen, I'll definitely follow up on your recommendation of parking lot training.  It's surprising how much a generally experienced, thoughtful rider can help you out if you actually ask him/her to deliberately watch and critique you - even just over the course of a short ride together.

[johan]

Do the Police in the US offer anything like this www.bikesafe-london.co.uk ? I've done it, it was good fun and I found it very helpful.

[root]

Do the Police in the US offer anything like this www.bikesafe-london.co.uk ? I've done it, it was good fun and I found it very helpful.

It's different in every state over here but in Indiana, they outsource all rider training and endorsement qualifications to ABATE, which is associated with the Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF). All their training is in a parking lot or a classroom. Weave through tight cones, do a tight u-turn at low speeds, see how fast you can stop from 15 mph or do a 90 deg turn in a 3 foot square. Nothing over 15mph and no on road training as it looks like is described in your link.