2017 FJ-09 Crank BTDC mark for aligning cams for cam shim inspection.

[howie333]

I've already read how the intake and exhaust cams need to be pulled and tied to the timing chain while reinstalling to line up cam and cam cap marks. Should be no problem, but when cams were out; I was spinning crank while hand guiding cam chain a few times for testing and being curious, but careful, and need to know if the triangular mark in site window I used to remove cams is located every 360 deg. for cam alignment ( 1 full rotation or  every other rotation) ? I can probably test this by marking cam chain and rotate crank. If there's a difference, please explain where and how to set up for cam and cam cap alignment. Also I checked shims kind of early, and found exhaust valves similarly the same. I measured .254 mm gaps. I'm just under the recommended .26-.30 mm minimum. The shims were approx. 1.80mm. The 1.75's would bring it to just over .30mm, but leaving would keep it just under the .26 min.  I always heard it's better for shims be loose, but not sure where to go w/ this. Also; which Loctite is to used for the cam tensioner bolts; red 271 permanent; 272 hi temp; 277 hi strength, or 242 blue ?

please reply if can help. 

Thank You...

 

 

Edited March 18 by howie333

[Ride365]

Take great care with those alien cams.

[skipperT]

Loosen them up. .31 or .32mm will be fine. if the shim size puts you a bit over I wouldn’t sweat it, they’ll tighten up again. 
 

crank spins 360 degrees for 1/2 a camshaft rotation. Or another way to think about it is that the crank goes around 2x while the cams complete 1 revolution.

so yes, what the book calls the K mark will only be printed once on the magneto/rotor/flywheel or whatever you choose to call it. 
 

follow the book, makes sure the exhaust cam is installed first and that the chain is tight on that side between the crank and the ex cam gear. be careful with the tensioner, use light pressure in the foot of the tensioner while setting the installation position. 
-Skip

[howie333]

On 3/18/2023 at 10:23 AM, skipperT said:

Loosen them up. .31 or .32mm will be fine. if the shim size puts you a bit over I wouldn’t sweat it, they’ll tighten up again. 
 

crank spins 360 degrees for 1/2 a camshaft rotation. Or another way to think about it is that the crank goes around 2x while the cams complete 1 revolution.

so yes, what the book calls the K mark will only be printed once on the magneto/rotor/flywheel or whatever you choose to call it. 
 

follow the book, makes sure the exhaust cam is installed first and that the chain is tight on that side between the crank and the ex cam gear. be careful with the tensioner, use light pressure in the foot of the tensioner while setting the installation position. 
 

  

 

Edited 11 hours ago by howie333

[skipperT]

No, the crank turns 2 times for 1 full revolution of the camshafts. 
so in answer to your question, it is possible to have the K mark lined up on the magneto rotor and NOT see the mark on the camshafts line up with the mark on the cam carrier caps. If that happens, spin the crankshaft another 360 degrees. 

-Skip

[howie333]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:32 AM, skipperT said:

No, the crank turns 2 times for 1 full revolution of the camshafts. 
so in answer to your question, it is possible to have the K mark lined up on the magneto rotor and NOT see the mark on the camshafts line up with the mark on the cam carrier caps. If that happens, spin the crankshaft another 360 degrees. 

-Skip

 

Edited 11 hours ago by howie333

[skipperT]

1 hour ago, howie333 said:

Well; problem is; the cams are out, so I guess now to find correct crank/cam positioning; I'll have to locate TDC #1 cylinder mark; use a marked probe in each cylinder spark plug hole; loosely laying out cams and visibly making sure no cam lobe/piston contact; then rotate crank 360 deg. again to verify all is correct. 

No - do you have a service manual???

make sure you read the Cam installation section carefully. You DO NOT install the cams at TDC cyl 1!!!
 
measuring the valve clearances is a different crankshaft position then remove/install camshafts!

-S
 

[howie333]

On 3/20/2023 at 12:05 PM, skipperT said:

No - do you have a service manual???

make sure you read the Cam installation section carefully. You DO NOT install the cams at TDC cyl 1!!!
 
measuring the valve clearances is a different crankshaft position then remove/install camshafts!

-S
 

 

Edited 11 hours ago by howie333

[skipperT]

2 hours ago, howie333 said:

OK; 360 deg. spin to crank K mark pistons same each time.  Looks fool proof; but will the cams always be in correct location even if cams punch marks are lined up w. caps in relation to the K mark on crank?

Thanks...

Howie- if the engine is timed correctly, it will always be timed correctly. 

If you line up the K mark on the crank and time both camshafts correctly to the crank by utilizing the dots on the cams and install the tensioner and all those things are relative to one another connected by chain and under tension via the cam chain tensioner then they will stay that way. 

if the chain is removed then no, they may or may not stay where you put them if you secure the camshafts by bolting down the cam carriers  

follow the book!!!!

I’m not trying to be an ass here, but are you sure you are comfortable with this procedure and know what you’re doing?

if not then seek the help of a pro.  Don’t try to piece it together with help from the ‘Net because you could destroy many things. I’ve had interactions with you before on this forum, Howie and maybe English isn’t your first language(?). Possibly what I’m trying to type to you isn’t making sense… but I don’t know how much more clear to make this…

-S

 

Edited March 20 by skipperT

[howie333]

On 3/20/2023 at 3:37 PM, skipperT said:

Howie- if the engine is timed correctly, it will always be timed correctly. 

If you line up the K mark on the crank and time both camshafts correctly to the crank by utilizing the dots on the cams and install the tensioner and all those things are relative to one another connected by chain and under tension via the cam chain tensioner then they will stay that way. 

if the chain is removed then no, they may or may not stay where you put them if you secure the camshafts by bolting down the cam carriers  

follow the book!!!!

I’m not trying to be an ass here, but are you sure you are comfortable with this procedure and know what you’re doing?

if not then seek the help of a pro.  Don’t try to piece it together with help from the ‘Net because you could destroy many things. I’ve had interactions with you before on this forum, Howie and maybe English isn’t your first language(?). Possibly what I’m trying to type to you isn’t making sense… but I don’t know how much more clear to make this…

-S

 

Following Manual description of cam removal and Installation is IF crank doesn't move from K mark during procedure unless I misread. Since I moved the crank; I just wanted cam install after valve shim exchange to be safe. I see when crank is turned 360deg a few times; piston location is the same  corresponding to the K mark on crank. Because there's a 2:1 ratio between crank and cams; I wanted to be reassured cams will be in correct location as long as punch/cap marks line up and wont change even if another revolution is done on crank and risk piston/valve interaction. I've done these procedures on parallel twin 180deg cranks; no problem.  I'm not sure what you meant "if chain is removed may not stay where I put them when caps are installed". I know when cams are in place; they must be aligned and should be tie wrapped on sprocket till tensioner is installed, then carefully spin several times to verify all marks are correct and no piston/valve interaction. I thought that is what I've been asking earlier. Anything I'm missing ?  

Edited 11 hours ago by howie333

[skipperT]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:45 PM, howie333 said:

I speak and understand VERY good and clear English. I'll end it by this. Following Manual description of cam removal and Installation is IF crank doesn't move from K mark during procedure unless I misread. Since I moved the crank; I just wanted cam install after valve shim exchange to be safe. I see when crank is turned 360deg a few times; piston location is the same  corresponding to the K mark on crank. Because there's a 2:1 ratio between crank and cams; I wanted to be reassured cams will be in correct location as long as punch/cap marks line up and wont change even if another revolution is done on crank and risk piston/valve interaction. I've done these procedures on parallel twin 180deg cranks; no problem.  I'm not sure what you meant "if chain is removed may not stay where I put them when caps are installed". I know when cams are in place; they must be aligned and should be tie wrapped on sprocket till tensioner is installed, then carefully spin several times to verify all marks are correct and no piston/valve interaction. I thought that is what I've been asking earlier. Anything I'm missing ?  Sorry to bother you...

 No sweat, Howie. Sometimes typing within the confines of this forum makes it harder to understand exactly what we’re trying to get across. Glad we could clarify and no, no bother at all! Sorry for my late reply. 

what I meant by “the chain being removed “ comment is that I wasn’t sure if you were asking if you bolted the cams into the head would they stay put and not rotate within the journals of the cylinder head. That’s what I was trying to answer. 

anywho, yes rest assured! That if you start with the crankshaft at the K mark, and Time first the Exhaust cam (while keeping tension on the camchain between the crank gear and the exhaust cam) with the punch mark on the cam lining up with the arrow on the camshaft “cap” and then Time the Intake cam and line it up as well, and then carefully torque down the caps in order and gradually in sequence. As long as everything is in Time when it’s all torqued down and the tensioner is installed correctly, then you will have timed the engine correctly and you’ll be good to go.

Cut the zip ties carefully off so they don’t fall down the camchain cavity and rotate slowly in the correct direction. If nothing jumps while you’re rotating then it will be fine. 

if it makes you feel any better, remember that when an engine is assembled it’s put together in this manner. Your are just resetting the baseline, so to speak. The instructions are written so that you CAN go back to the “baseline” and have a proper running engine.

-Skip
 

[howie333]

12 hours ago, skipperT said:

 No sweat, Howie. Sometimes typing within the confines of this forum makes it harder to understand exactly what we’re trying to get across. Glad we could clarify and no, no bother at all! Sorry for my late reply. 

what I meant by “the chain being removed “ comment is that I wasn’t sure if you were asking if you bolted the cams into the head would they stay put and not rotate within the journals of the cylinder head. That’s what I was trying to answer. 

anywho, yes rest assured! That if you start with the crankshaft at the K mark, and Time first the Exhaust cam (while keeping tension on the camchain between the crank gear and the exhaust cam) with the punch mark on the cam lining up with the arrow on the camshaft “cap” and then Time the Intake cam and line it up as well, and then carefully torque down the caps in order and gradually in sequence. As long as everything is in Time when it’s all torqued down and the tensioner is installed correctly, then you will have timed the engine correctly and you’ll be good to go.

Cut the zip ties carefully off so they don’t fall down the camchain cavity and rotate slowly in the correct direction. If nothing jumps while you’re rotating then it will be fine. 

if it makes you feel any better, remember that when an engine is assembled it’s put together in this manner. Your are just resetting the baseline, so to speak. The instructions are written so that you CAN go back to the “baseline” and have a proper running engine.

-Skip
 

Thank You for replies and reassurance.  The hex/allen cam tensioner tool is not available and seems even a modified allen wrench may hit frame. I may cut tip, and weld a bolt head on. when all done I'll let you know how it went. sorry for past confusion.