Bluetooth headsets

[fzkenm]

Looking to get a bluetooth headset.   Looking at the reviews, it looks like the Sena SMH10 is the optimum choice.  Not the R but the original.  Anyone else have first hand experience and can make a recommendation?  The jog dial seems to offer the best functionality with gloves and that is what seems to be the most salient feature.

[Guest dmizer]

It's a pretty solid piece of kit. I've had and extensively used one, as well as the SMH5 and now the 20S. The only bad thing I have to say about it is that it's not as weather resistant as the other models. It has plenty of battery life, and it's easy to use, even with thick winter gloves. It is a little large, so you'll need to be caeful about where you mount it on the helmet or it'll bump into shoulder pads or the like when you turn your head. Great for everything from communicating with your passenger to listening to google GPS directions and taking phone calls. It even pairs with other bluetooth capable headsets, so I've used it to keep in contact with a car driver who had a bluetooth capable hands free headset.
 
Of course, all of this is also true of any of the other Sena units I've used. The real kicker though is the added functionality you get with the 20S and the mobile app. That alone is worth the additional cost.

[johan]

Sena also manufactures a handlebar remote control for the 20S and other models. I can't get hold of a supplier online though...

[jimf]

Sena also manufactures a handlebar remote control for the 20S and other models. I can't get hold of a supplier online though...

If it's available at all you'd be able to buy it direct from Sena.  You can't, yet.  This happened with the SM10 (BT audio adapter unit) a couple of years ago, and the 20S last year, too.  I think their marketing people get a little ahead of their production people. 
I keep looking at their integrated headset/camera, the 10C.  I want that, but I haven't had the 20S that long....
 
[edited to correct model numbers]

[jimf]

Oh, regarding which of the Senas to get, I had the SMH10 and now use the 20S. In terms of build quality the SMH10 was superior. That was a tank. I only had two complaints with it:
 
1. The latch mechanism was easy to accidentally release. I laid my suit on top of my helmet in a restaurant once and it pressed the latch and the SMH10 fell off. Luckily the staff found it and returned it to me next time I was in, but after that I manufactured a safety strap system and was a lot more careful.
 
2. The unit is slow to pair. Where it would take 20-30 seconds for the SMH10 to pair with my phone, the 20S will do it almost instantly.
 
The 20S's build quality is noticeably inferior to the SMH10. It's not bad, but when you've got the SMH10 to compare it to it's clearly more cheaply made. There were some defective units early in the 20S' life, too, in particular the latch mechanism was built with too-tight tolerances and on some units couldn't be latched without excessive force, which could cause cracks. Mine didn't have this problem, but there were markings in the plastic that showed where someone had manually modified the mold to increase the clearance. Even on mine it's a very tight fit, tight enough that it took me a couple of hours to realize that the audio problems I was having were due to not having pushed hard enough to fully latch it. My call is that they pushed it into production a bit too fast.
 
With both of the units it seems like a crap shoot getting them paired. I think in part it's because the SMH10 takes awhile to go through the process, long enough that you think it didn't work and start pushing buttons and interfering with the pairing. Unfortunately I don't ride with anyone else with a 20S so I haven't had the opportunity to try with a more performant unit. It would help a lot if the Sena kept each unit updated on the status of the pairing process, but it doesn't. I've complained to them about that. Small improvements here would make a huge difference in usability. Heck, the manual doesn't even tell you how long it ought to take once you push the "pair" button to finish the job. We've always managed to get it done but there's enough standing around pushing buttons and watching lights blink in different colors to be annoying at times. The units retain their last pairings, though, so if you ride with the same people regularly (or use it for rider/passenger) you can go a long time without having to re-pair.
 
The 20S has reduced range versus the SMH10. Sena claims it'll work up to 1km/0.6mi, but even on straight line-of-sight I haven't seen that, and on a curvy road it's way less than that -- maybe 0.2km. My feeling, which is admittedly anecdotal, is that the SMH10 worked almost twice as well in this respect. Extending the antenna is supposed to help, but I can't say I noticed either way. Some of my friends really complain about the reduced distance, but honestly I think it's still more than good enough. How quickly we forget what it was like to use hand signals. :-) Plus, I prefer to listen to the music and only fire the intercom when something important is going on, like we're making a turn or someone needs fuel, in which case you're within a few feet of each other.
 
I like that the 20S has a phone app, but it could be a lot more useful with only minor changes -- like helping you get paired up successfully, and providing some information on which unit is paired (e.g. with its bluetooth ID) so you can more easily figure out which intercom number is which person.
 
So, there are some nits. Even so, they work very well. The voice control in the 20S is simplistic but it really does work (I feel like I'm in a science fiction movie when I say "Hello Sena ... play music" and it works). Once paired the communication works well. The batteries on both units last all day easy, and I've gone two full days of riding on occasion without recharging as long as I remember to turn it off during food stops. Sena has been fantastic about upgrading the software regularly to improve function and fix bugs.

[mace]

I just bought senas after reviewing many others and I tested them out this past week. They are fantastic. There is a box with 2 already paired for under $250. My brother was pretty far away - got stuck at a light, and I could still hear him. I just bought a second mount for our atvs. The direct connection worked better than the phone part but both were more than acceptable.
 
Fantastic units.

[Guest dmizer]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on reduced range with the 20S. I get at least the same if not better range. The difference between the SMH5 and the SMH10 wasn't so extreme, and sometimes the SMH5 outperformed the SMH10 but the 20S is clearly superior. The weather proofing is also superior in the 20S. I have also had no pairing issues with the 20S. Also, after having pulled apart the SMH10 to cure it of it's water woes, I have to say that the build quality isn't so impressive either.

[jimf]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on reduced range with the 20S. I get at least the same if not better range. The difference between the SMH5 and the SMH10 wasn't so extreme, and sometimes the SMH5 outperformed the SMH10 but the 20S is clearly superior. The weather proofing is also superior in the 20S. I have also had no pairing issues with the 20S. Also, after having pulled apart the SMH10 to cure it of it's water woes, I have to say that the build quality isn't so impressive either.

<shrug> I guess YMMV.  This wasn't just my opinion, though; the Sena units are ubiquitous amongst the people I ride with and I'm just reiterating common complaints.  If you like, you can go read the Sena support boards and you'll find the same complaints.  Also, it might depend on when you got your unit: Early production 20S units definitely had some quality problems, in particular with the helmet mount latch system, and the current software is a lot less buggy than it used to be.  So, it might be that some -- maybe even most -- of what we've seen is the result of jumping on the 20S very early in its life.  Some of my friends ordered them the day they (finally) went on sale. 
I haven't had weather problems with either unit, but I haven't used the 20S through a frog-strangler yet.  (That will probably change next weekend, looking at the weather reports.)  The SMH10 worked fine for me riding for hours through rain so hard you couldn't see the road (literally, I was using oncoming headlights to determine where the road must be).  Some friends have had occasional issues with water with the SMH10, but I never did.  I don't recall anyone complaining about water with the 20S, so that may confirm improved weatherproofing.
 
Regarding the pairing issues, I've not tried 20S to 20S -- all my riding buddies are using either the SMH10 or 5.  (Note: Skip the 5.  It's low-profile, and cheap, but you can't participate in group intercom which truly sucks.)  I suspect pairing is a lot easier with the 20S because it's a heck of a lot faster -- things happen in realtime, within a couple of seconds, rather than after half a minute with the SMH10.  I am pretty much of the opinion that most of the problems I've seen with pairing these units are merely impatience, but it's hard to tell when the units won't tell you what's going on through the pairing process.  You know you started it, but you get no further information about it until it either works or fails -- as much as several minutes later.  If it takes a couple of tries that's easily 5 minutes, and that's what we've seen.
 
Getting SMH10s paired with each other, or SMH10s paired with my 20S, has meant a lot of standing around pushing buttons and looking at blinking lights and hoping.  I've never had it not work, but it can take a few tries -- there's clearly some part of the procedure we're not doing right, or we're too impatient.  This is also typical amongst the people I ride with, and I know we're not unusual because I've seen people doing the Sena pairing dance at common ride launch places like Alice's Restaurant near San Francisco.
 
I really do think that having each headset tell you e.g. that it's found another headset and is trying to pair with it would be a big UI improvement, and possibly cure all my complaints in one fell swoop.  As it is right now it's guesswork and somewhat hit-or-miss.
 
I'll ask this of you: What exactly is the procedure that you use to pair it successfully every time?  The manual says to put both headsets into pairing mode then tap the jog dial on one of them.  This doesn't seem to work 100% of the time.
 
Having said all that, I think the Senas are still head-and-shoulders better than everything else.  There's a good reason most of the Scala users amongst my riding buddies switched to Sena.  And even if the intercom system didn't work at all, it's brilliant at getting music from my phone and directions from my GPS to my helmet -- 95% of what I use it for.
 
Oh, GPS, I forgot about that.  The 20S can easily pair with both phone and Garmin Zumo simultaneously, something the SMH10 couldn't do without some kind of daisy chaining (pair phone to GPS, GPS to headset) or the use of a BT audio adapter or the loss of music from the phone.  That was in fact the feature for which I bought the 20S, and that alone was worth it.  The fact that it boots up and re-pairs so much faster, and all the other added features, are just gravy.
 
 

[Guest bmidd]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you on reduced range with the 20S. I get at least the same if not better range. The difference between the SMH5 and the SMH10 wasn't so extreme, and sometimes the SMH5 outperformed the SMH10 but the 20S is clearly superior. The weather proofing is also superior in the 20S. I have also had no pairing issues with the 20S. Also, after having pulled apart the SMH10 to cure it of it's water woes, I have to say that the build quality isn't so impressive either.Getting SMH10s paired with each other, or SMH10s paired with my 20S, has meant a lot of standing around pushing buttons and looking at blinking lights and hoping.  I've never had it not work, but it can take a few tries -- there's clearly some part of the procedure we're not doing right, or we're too impatient.  This is also typical amongst the people I ride with, and I know we're not unusual because I've seen people doing the Sena pairing dance at common ride launch places like Alice's Restaurant near San Francisco.

 
 
I'll ask this of you: What exactly is the procedure that you use to pair it successfully every time?  The manual says to put both headsets into pairing mode then tap the jog dial on one of them.  This doesn't seem to work 100% of the time.
 
 

I don't know what you're doing wrong. I just bought a new set of SMH10 to replace my original set that was only able to upgrade by sending them in to Sena, remember those days? I have re-paired with the other 3 guys I ride with and it took no more than 10 seconds for each one and worked the first time on all three. I refuse to pay what the want for the 20S when the SMH10 does everything I need it to, the next test is when I find my friend with the Cardo and try to pair with his unit.

[jimf]

I'll ask this of you: What exactly is the procedure that you use to pair it successfully every time?  The manual says to put both headsets into pairing mode then tap the jog dial on one of them.  This doesn't seem to work 100% of the time.
 
 

I don't know what you're doing wrong. I just bought a new set of SMH10 to replace my original set that was only able to upgrade by sending them in to Sena, remember those days? I have re-paired with the other 3 guys I ride with and it took no more than 10 seconds for each one and worked the first time on all three. I refuse to pay what the want for the 20S when the SMH10 does everything I need it to, the next test is when I find my friend with the Cardo and try to pair with his unit.

For all I know it's environmental.  Maybe there's just too much EM noise in the areas where I normally try to do this.  I mentioned Alice's Restaurant: With 50+ bikers there, many of them with headsets, it wouldn't shock me if there were tons of interference making it more difficult than it should be.  And a lot of the time I'm trying to do it inside a parking garage where I work, which may have a lot of multipath issues.  Maybe if I did it out in the open with fewer people around it would work better.  I'll have to give that a try next time. 
I missed the have-to-send-it-to-Sena upgrade days, thankfully :-).  I've been very, very pleased with Sena's continued improvement of their software even on the older units.  If all I have to complain about is that it can take a couple of tries to get them paired, well, that's not a deal-breaker.
 
 

[Guest dmizer]

I guess YMMV.  This wasn't just my opinion, though; the Sena units are ubiquitous amongst the people I ride with and I'm just reiterating common complaints.  If you like, you can go read the Sena support boards and you'll find the same complaints.  Also, it might depend on when you got your unit: Early production 20S units definitely had some quality problems, in particular with the helmet mount latch system, and the current software is a lot less buggy than it used to be.  So, it might be that some -- maybe even most -- of what we've seen is the result of jumping on the 20S very early in its life.  Some of my friends ordered them the day they (finally) went on sale.

I bought my 20S after the first firmware update and it's been working flawlessly. My only complaint was that rain will trip the motion sensing. I disabled motion sensing and have been trouble free ever since. I've also been very impressed with the range.
 

I haven't had weather problems with either unit, but I haven't used the 20S through a frog-strangler yet.  (That will probably change next weekend, looking at the weather reports.)  The SMH10 worked fine for me riding for hours through rain so hard you couldn't see the road (literally, I was using oncoming headlights to determine where the road must be).  Some friends have had occasional issues with water with the SMH10, but I never did.  I don't recall anyone complaining about water with the 20S, so that may confirm improved weatherproofing.

To be fair, I used my SMH10 for about 3 years before it finally succumbed, and I'm a daily rider living in Japan where heavy rain is just a part of riding. My passenger's been using my old SMH5s for almost 5 years in all kinds of weather without issue though. My SMH10 died after a 12 hour rain ride on the expressway, which, admittedly, is pretty extreme. I was able to return the headset to service by pulling it apart and sticking the circuit board and battery in a container of rice, but upon pulling it apart it was pretty clear to me that the device is merely very water resistant, and clearly not water proof. Be particularly careful with making sure the USB charging port cover is closed correctly.
 

(Note: Skip the 5. It's low-profile, and cheap, but you can't participate in group intercom which truly sucks.)

I've only once in 5 years of riding with Sena's participated in a group intercom. For some people, the lack of a group intercom would be a deal breaker, but for me, it's not an issue. I suspect the lack of group intercom wouldn't be an issue for a majority of riders.
 

Getting SMH10s paired with each other, or SMH10s paired with my 20S, has meant a lot of standing around pushing buttons and looking at blinking lights and hoping.  I've never had it not work, but it can take a few tries -- there's clearly some part of the procedure we're not doing right, or we're too impatient.  This is also typical amongst the people I ride with, and I know we're not unusual because I've seen people doing the Sena pairing dance at common ride launch places like Alice's Restaurant near San Francisco. 
I really do think that having each headset tell you e.g. that it's found another headset and is trying to pair with it would be a big UI improvement, and possibly cure all my complaints in one fell swoop.  As it is right now it's guesswork and somewhat hit-or-miss.
 
I'll ask this of you: What exactly is the procedure that you use to pair it successfully every time?  The manual says to put both headsets into pairing mode then tap the jog dial on one of them.  This doesn't seem to work 100% of the time.

 
The SMH10 only has 4 slots for intercom pairs. If you ride with a lot of other people and you pair with them frequently enough that the older pairs just get kicked out of memory, you'll have trouble trying to re-pair to that headset again later. It may also cause you trouble if all your intercom memory slots are full. I've gotten around this by doing a factory default reset prior to group rides. This dumps all the old intercom pairing information. Unfortunately, it also dumps all your bluetooth parings as well. But with the SMH10, I've found that this is the fastest way to get pairing accomplished quickly and successfully. Admittedly though, it's a kludge.
 
On the 20S, you can expedite intercom pairing by going into the app and creating a free slot for the first intercom.
 

Oh, GPS, I forgot about that.  The 20S can easily pair with both phone and Garmin Zumo simultaneously, something the SMH10 couldn't do without some kind of daisy chaining (pair phone to GPS, GPS to headset) or the use of a BT audio adapter or the loss of music from the phone.  That was in fact the feature for which I bought the 20S, and that alone was worth it.  The fact that it boots up and re-pairs so much faster, and all the other added features, are just gravy.

This was a pretty huge issue for me as well, because I don't always ride with my GPS which meant I had to unpair my phone, then pair to the GPS when using the GPS. Then re-pair the phone to the headset when I wasn't using the GPS.

[fzkenm]

Thanks for the input.  I looked at the 20S again, but for my needs, the extra $100+ isn't worth the difference.  I'll mostly use it for listening to music and decided the SMH-10 was the best value.

[root]

I have the SMH10 and the 20s. Put simply, the 20s has better sound quality, especially for music. The 20s seems buggy though. The SMH10 has been rock solid. For some odd reason, I always have to initiate the first pair between the two from the SMH10. It says intercom failed if I start it from the 20s. After the first pairing from when they are both turned on I can initiate from the 20s. I have not tried it with another 20s though.

[jimf]

Getting SMH10s paired with each other, or SMH10s paired with my 20S, has meant a lot of standing around pushing buttons and looking at blinking lights and hoping. [...] 
I'll ask this of you: What exactly is the procedure that you use to pair it successfully every time?

The SMH10 only has 4 slots for intercom pairs. If you ride with a lot of other people and you pair with them frequently enough that the older pairs just get kicked out of memory, you'll have trouble trying to re-pair to that headset again later. It may also cause you trouble if all your intercom memory slots are full. I've gotten around this by doing a factory default reset prior to group rides. This dumps all the old intercom pairing information. Unfortunately, it also dumps all your bluetooth parings as well. But with the SMH10, I've found that this is the fastest way to get pairing accomplished quickly and successfully. Admittedly though, it's a kludge.
 
On the 20S, you can expedite intercom pairing by going into the app and creating a free slot for the first intercom.

Fan-tas-tic. I never made the correlation between "already paired before" and "trouble pairing." That could very easily be the problem, since I tend to switch between a couple of different groups and my daughter. Thanks!
 
If you're ever in Boston, I will happy buy you a beer or three.

[tfj09]

I have and still use the SMH10, and have found it to work well with other Sena units, and other brands. I have not had the pairing problems described by others.
 
As for the 20s... extremely disappointed. I returned it. IMHO, not anywhere near the similar build quality of past Sena units, and VERY buggy.