Wobble and Speed

[jimf]

No idea what happened unless they just weren't seated well when new or the valves were leaking. I got out of the driveway and onto the road and thought oh shet, this doesn't fell right. 

 
Just one of those things, then. Maybe the valve didn't seal properly that one time, or maybe the tire bead needed to work its way into the rim. Or you have a friend with a bad sense of humor. :-)

[redfjniner]

Sounds like a fatal flaw in the FJ-09 design! Inform the NHTSA and maybe we all get a refund.

Hopefully I read your post correctly @ogri , humour and sarcasm don't always traverse continents. 
I had my bike in for a 12k mile service today and took the opportunity to go  over some of the issues often raised by owners. The wobble is a biggie, one that I haven't really admitted to.
The workshop manager seemed to have a plausible explanation to my seemingly it did it and now doesn't wobble as much. When I got my bike, within 5 days I was on a long distance trip, just about any SUV sized vehicle in front of me caused an issue.
In time, I thought it was me who had 'learnt'   how to ride the bike - maybe not. New bearings might want to try and 'correct' a situation by being reluctant to move.
 
Yeah, when it was less than a week old, I had tremendous stability issues, would  wobble at the slightest opportunity on the motorway/freeway/etc.
 
I was one of the earlier proponents whom linked rider weight with the problem - speaking now of high speed instability, not 40 mph.
 
In Europe there has been a 'lot of noise' made of the stability at speed particularly riders in Italy and Greece, possibly in part to local fora whipping up sentiment and calling for the manufacturer to remedy the 'problem'.
 
Upright riding can cause this, it ain't Yamaha or the FJ/Tacer specific, name a model and we'll see issues - maybe the most expensive models may have a solution.
In an attempt to arrest this, I posted a video of my instability, not one I feel warrants any comment - Side cases (Euro) and a top box, I'm not the most 'athletic' in proportions but tried and have to admit succeeded in inducing a wobble.
 
[video src=https://youtu.be/2r5IdQGTtII]  

Thanks for the video Steve.  Correct me if I missed something but it appears that a slight wobble happens sometimes at around 175k, (104m)  and that is about  the same time while shifting from third to fourth while on the throttle.  Combining the hard on the throttle and shifting at a time when a natural wobble occures may be the reason or answer why this occurred on my bike and as others have also noted.  While hard on the throttle and shifting at 100-104+ appears to possibly cause a very violent wobble or head shake as opposed to the mild wobble shown in the video.  Just my thoughts.

[kkfnx]

Ok guys, I probably have the answer for the wobble at 180km/h. I gave my Tracer (Greece) back to the seller in order to fix it or to keep it. So he had to fix the problem, and after 2 weeks of phone calls (from me to him) he found something extremely useful. The front wheel wasnt completely rounded. So he fixed it and ordered a new one from yamaha ( still waiting for the new). So I tested the bike with the fixed front wheel with no windshield at all, and there was no problem at 223km/h. After that test, I put my ermax windshield (the high one) and it started wobbling at 194km/h (the windshield was shaking at the top left and top right that made me think it was a constractive mistake from ermax), but it was a windy day. After a couple of tests and a harder set of the rear suspension Im glad for the result. So the answer is that the problem was the front wheel and the windshield with its modern design is not completely aerodynamic. My bike also uses givi bars. I hope I helped you guys.

[redfjniner]

Ok guys, I probably have the answer for the wobble at 180km/h. I gave my Tracer (Greece) back to the seller in order to fix it or to keep it. So he had to fix the problem, and after 2 weeks of phone calls (from me to him) he found something extremely useful. The front wheel wasnt completely rounded. So he fixed it and ordered a new one from yamaha ( still waiting for the new). So I tested the bike with the fixed front wheel with no windshield at all, and there was no problem at 223km/h. After that test, I put my ermax windshield (the high one) and it started wobbling at 194km/h (the windshield was shaking at the top left and top right that made me think it was a constractive mistake from ermax), but it was a windy day. After a couple of tests and a harder set of the rear suspension Im glad for the result. So the answer is that the problem was the front wheel and the windshield with its modern design is not completely aerodynamic. My bike also uses givi bars. I hope I helped you guys.

I and others have noted that the front wheel is about 70 grams out of balance with out rubber tire on the rim.  This seams to be common.  If that is also out of round issue, then we have reason for a recall, especially after a bunch of us crash.  I felt like I was going in that direction.

[kkfnx]

There is an <> inside the wheel. Its not rounded.

[ogri]

Ok guys, I probably have the answer for the wobble at 180km/h. I gave my Tracer (Greece) back to the seller in order to fix it or to keep it. So he had to fix the problem, and after 2 weeks of phone calls (from me to him) he found something extremely useful. The front wheel wasnt completely rounded. So he fixed it and ordered a new one from yamaha ( still waiting for the new). So I tested the bike with the fixed front wheel with no windshield at all, and there was no problem at 223km/h. After that test, I put my ermax windshield (the high one) and it started wobbling at 194km/h (the windshield was shaking at the top left and top right that made me think it was a constractive mistake from ermax), but it was a windy day. After a couple of tests and a harder set of the rear suspension Im glad for the result. So the answer is that the problem was the front wheel and the windshield with its modern design is not completely aerodynamic. My bike also uses givi bars. I hope I helped you guys.

I and others have noted that the front wheel is about 70 grams out of balance with out rubber tire on the rim.  This seams to be common.  If that is also out of round issue, then we have reason for a recall, especially after a bunch of us crash.  I felt like I was going in that direction.

Since some riders experience instability issues and others don't, there must be a front end problem (manufacturing defect) with some of the bikes out there. I have previously speculated a wheel balance problem, which should be brought to the attention of your dealer. There may be a date range over which bikes need to be recalled or reviewed for this problem.  

[quicksilver]

Interesting. Original wheel balance for the D222 had a single small balance weight. When I had the front tire replaced with Roadmaster II I was curious as to why a higher quality tire required three weights. I suspect the factory balance was done in a fashion to save wheel weight costs (LOL). I have not done any high speed runs lately ( I've been staying under 120), only running hard through twisties. I'll have to see what the sensations are now.

[johan]

I and others have noted that the front wheel is about 70 grams out of balance with out rubber tire on the rim.  This seams to be common.  If that is also out of round issue, then we have reason for a recall, especially after a bunch of us crash.  I felt like I was going in that direction.

Since some riders experience instability issues and others don't, there must be a front end problem (manufacturing defect) with some of the bikes out there. I have previously speculated a wheel balance problem, which should be brought to the attention of your dealer. There may be a date range over which bikes need to be recalled or reviewed for this problem.

I don't doubt that some wheels are not true but I don't think there is a manufacturing defect that causes the stability issues, it's a design problem. I think all the bikes have it, some riders may have a higher tolerance, some riders' body mass, size and riding style may compound the issue (I do think bigger riders experience it worse) but I think they all have it. I notice it, almost daily, but with my riding style it is something I can tolerate and I accept that the design is compromised. The wide bars and upright design/rake which makes it so much fun at lower speeds and in the mountains is what causes the issue. I sometimes press on, and though I feel it regularly it has not scared me so far. Scuff has previously described it very well and also took video footage demonstrating the problem. He ultimately decided to buy a different bike, a Fireblade, renowned for its handling. But if you read Scuff's description you'll see that he experienced it in a bad way when he was riding near the edge. He is a very experienced and qualified rider who will use any bike to its full potential. I enjoy mine and ride it hard, sometimes, but I am not going to chase a sportsbike around the country lanes with it. Interestingly Mrs Scuff still rides a Tracer, so I assume he still has some confidence in it. 
 
 
 
 

[ogri]

Since some riders experience instability issues and others don't, there must be a front end problem (manufacturing defect) with some of the bikes out there. I have previously speculated a wheel balance problem, which should be brought to the attention of your dealer. There may be a date range over which bikes need to be recalled or reviewed for this problem.

I don't doubt that some wheels are not true but I don't think there is a manufacturing defect that causes the stability issues, it's a design problem. I think all the bikes have it, some riders may have a higher tolerance, some riders' body mass, size and riding style may compound the issue (I do think bigger riders experience it worse) but I think they all have it. I notice it, almost daily, but with my riding style it is something I can tolerate and I accept that the design is compromised. The wide bars and upright design/rake which makes it so much fun at lower speeds and in the mountains is what causes the issue. I sometimes press on, and though I feel it regularly it has not scared me so far. Scuff has previously described it very well and also took video footage demonstrating the problem. He ultimately decided to buy a different bike, a Fireblade, renowned for its handling. But if you read Scuff's description you'll see that he experienced it in a bad way when he was riding near the edge. He is a very experienced and qualified rider who will use any bike to its full potential. I enjoy mine and ride it hard, sometimes, but I am not going to chase a sportsbike around the country lanes with it. Interestingly Mrs Scuff still rides a Tracer, so I assume he still has some confidence in it. 
 
 
 

There seem to be two regimes in which riders report problems. One is at higher speeds (70+ mph) or under hard acceleration at higher speeds and  the other is when decelerating through around 55 to 40 mph. Would perhaps be interesting to set-up a survey to see the ratio of riders seeing these problems versus riders with no issues.  

[drewh108]

I get headshake if I let go of the bars on decel. And I can feel it if I just release one hand as well. Typically does it below 40mph, and I do not have any luggage plus I removed the stock hand guards. Otherwise all stock including tires and pressure. 
Some might say "don't let go of the bars." I guess so, but none of my other bikes have done this.
 
Anyone else?

Usually what you describe is caused by loose steering head bearings. They need to be checked and tightened.
 
How many miles on your bike?
-Skip
 
 
 
I only have 2700 miles on the bike.  I don't think it's loose head bearings, unless they had little to no grease to begin with.  My bike is VIN #00081, so early production.They there is some slight movement up front if you hold the brake and rock it a little, that could just be fork flex.  Nothing dramatic.  I did loosen all the fork pinch bolts and re torque them, they were really tight.  Only had a couple of small wheelies
since new. I also recently added some air pressure to both ends, as they seem to be loosing more rapidly than other tires I've had.  Not a huge Dunlop fan really, though these are decent tires.
 
 
 
No high speed wobble issues at all, very stable even with two up on occasion.   
 
-Drew

 

[redfjniner]

I get headshake if I let go of the bars on decel. And I can feel it if I just release one hand as well. Typically does it below 40mph, and I do not have any luggage plus I removed the stock hand guards. Otherwise all stock including tires and pressure. 
Some might say "don't let go of the bars." I guess so, but none of my other bikes have done this.
 
Anyone else?

Drew:  First take it to the dealer.  Second thing I would look into is the front tire.  Although we haven't heard of the D222 causing this here on the forum before, Yours may be the first.  This is often a problem caused by the front tire.  I would routinely get this with Avon Azaro tires on the FJR, not all, but some.  44mph with no hands would almost be violent.  From speed it would start around 55mph on decel.  It was standard practice to loosen the triple trees and axle, shake and tighten.  This would often reduce the shake enough to tolerate it.  It would also occur with other brand of tires after they got old and cupped.  On the FJR, it became a standard practice to inflate the front tire to 40-42 psi to reduce the cupping and therefore reduce the head shake.  After checking the tire, check the head bearing as they may be loose (doesn't take much).  Re torque as the factory may not have gotten it right, as has been found on other bikes in the past.  You shouldn't have any head shake, so take it back to the dealer.

[steveb]

I get headshake if I let go of the bars on decel. And I can feel it if I just release one hand as well. Typically does it below 40mph, and I do not have any luggage plus I removed the stock hand guards. Otherwise all stock including tires and pressure. 
Some might say "don't let go of the bars." I guess so, but none of my other bikes have done this.
 
Anyone else?

I've never noticed any issues with deceleration wobble, but also don't remember really letting go of the bars on deceleration either.  So after reading this I thought I'd go out and see if it existed on my FJ.  While decelerating I tried a number of times to hover my hands over the bars (just in case) and let the bike coast on down.  I had one instance where the bars started to shake, but not enough to make me grab the bars.  This happened right about 35 mph and I had to brake for a stoplight rather than see if it settled itself out.  I found a straight neighborhood road with no traffic and tried several more times without the shake appearing at all from @45 mph down below 25 mph.  I tried uphill and downhill.  I did have one instance, where the front wheel must have hit a bump at just the right angle, where the handle bars shook some but not much.  Several other times even decelerating over some minor ripples in the road (perpendicular to my direction of travel) I got nothing.  Maybe ripples paralleling the direction of travel or hitting at an angle would be a problem, but I haven't tried that yet.
 
I'm still on the original tires with @4400 miles on them.  Tire pressure might be a hair low (as I haven't checked it in a while) but, if so, not by much.  Suspension is stock and the preload has been stiffened some front and rear.  Handlebars are stock, no steering damper, windshield is stock and in the middle position.  I had my FJR saddlebags and Givi topbox on the bike at the time. 
 
If you're getting a consistent deceleration wobble, and your tires etc. look good, I agree with some of the other opinions that you need to have the dealer check your bike out.
 
Good luck!  Let us know if/when you figure it out.
 
 
 

[drewh108]

Thanks for the input on this guys. And steveb thanks for the experimentation. I will call the dealer and have a discussion, see what they think. I might also try some suspension adjustments too and see if anything changes. Wish my spare GSXR front wheel would fit as a control...

[Lone Wolf]

Ok guys, I probably have the answer for the wobble at 180km/h... The front wheel wasnt completely rounded. 

I picked up a balancer a couple years ago. You can get cheap ones that will do the job, I got a good one at http://www.marcparnes.com/ With the wheel off the bike, these simple balancers will also detect any "out of round" condition by if you hold a pen near the rim or outer part of the tire.
 
I had an old interceptor with a very nasty wobble on decel, and I knew the front tire was 1/2 worn out.
 
Turned out it had become waaay out of balance, and that solved the problem.  It happens on cars too as the tires wear, but you don't notice it unless it becomes way out of balance.  On a bike it is a big deal. 1/2 the rubber is gone, and if it hasn't been re-balanced it can be way off.
 
I haven't picked up an FJ-09 yet, but I will when my current bike gets more miles on it. So I don't have usefull info on the FJ-09, but I would suggest investing in an affordable balancer before throwing the bike under the bus as a design flaw. it is likely the tires, (or wheel in the case of the guy in the video).
 
These bikes don't have enough miles on them yet to wear out the steering head bearings. 
 
http://i.imgur.com/GgQ66JZ.png

[Lone Wolf]

Do my own installs but haven't balanced in 10 years.

I started doing my own instals as well - and have grown to enjoy it. Kind of a pain at first, but I truly prefer KNOWING what is going on with my bike by doing it myself. 
 
You are correct that many tires no longer have a "weight spot" marked on the tires.
All tires have to be balanced after instal. All of them.
 
Even if you had the "weight spot" placed in correct position relative to the tire stem, that only gets you part of the way there. They have to be balanced, and if you do it within 1/8 oz it feels like you are riding on glass.  It will change as the tires wear, and I rebalance half way through the tire life.
 
[span]    [/span]"Wobble on deceleration IME has been due to cupping."
[span]And of course - where there is cupping there has been some tire wear. Some rubber is gone.
 
Time to balance, or re-balance when there is visual cupping.   [/span]