Setting up your suspension for the Real World

[lakegastonhank]

Suspension settings and dialing in suspension using practice area

Let me start by saying I am NOT a racer boy on the street.  (I once went over the bars at 70mph and spent 7 days in a hospital)  I see suggested settings all over the internet and all seem tilted to almost “Track Day” settings. Is that what you really want? On an FJ?

So, being totally honest, I have no interest in going really fast in the street environment. I want my bike to handle well at moderate speeds and especially in low speed areas. So, when I brought my FJ home, I noticed it was really firm compared to my 26 year old BMW K75s, which handled very well.

After watching all the videos, I realized I would not find much help there other than in making adjustments to my suspension.  On the FJ, which is reportedly much stiffer than the FZ in years past, (We carry passengers and luggage) I wanted to set it up to suit my riding wants and skills.  (Be honest with yourself here)

Right away I noticed mine was set up by the dealer with the forks as low as they could go in the triple tree. Hmmm, not good. I raised the forks to the mid-setting and found it MUCH easier to turn the bike. It still was stiff, but rode much better on the expressways where 80 mph is the norm.

Now when you are making adjustments to your suspension, you must have a practice area where you can check out your changes and see if they work for you. I am fortunate to have a local theatre with a huge parking lot and lots of “Islands” to ride through as a test track. Wear all your protective gear and start slow. As you increase speed through this course you will begin to “feel” the suspension working and that is critical.

Next I checked out the rear shock spring preload and found it one notch off of full firm. OK for hauling your better half around but not so much for solo riding. I backed it off to one notch from full soft. For the rebound setting I needed help measuring the sag and rebound. Standard is 1 ½ turns from full firm; I went to two turns.

The forks are much easier to work with and they were set to the factory setting, which I think are a bit too firm for ME.  I began by backing off the spring preload to soften up the front a bit.  I also adjusted the rebound, since these three adjustments are all that are available on the FJ. After every adjustment you should scoot through your “test track” and see the difference you created.  A notebook is essential here to keep track of your changes and affects.

Once you begin to feel really comfortable on the test track, take it out on the real road and see how you like it. This is a process and I went through it on my motocross race bikes many years ago, as well as my trusty “Little Red” BMW K75s, and I’m still going through it with my FJ. So, take your time and TEST, don’t just dial in settings someone else suggests!

Good luck and remember. This is a never ending process… As your riding skills increase, you may have to stiffen things back up and reset the rebound to suit your improving skills.

[enx]

Did you measured front and rear sag?

[BBB]

All dealers will set the forks so they are flush with the triple tree, as that is how they are designed to be by Yamaha. It wasn’t a fault by your dealer. As for raising them to the “medium” setting,  I have no idea what you are using when you specify this. It is more normal to state the distance you raised the forks by e.g. 10mm above the triple tree. Be aware that you are changing ride height at the front (lowering it), as well as changing the angle. It does nothing for the “stiffness” but will affect how the bike turns in.

Preload is another area where your descriptions are slightly off. When you increase preload, you again alter ride height (increasing preload increases ride height) and you do not stiffen the suspension as you have not altered the spring rate at all.

Having said all that, your approach to noting what you’ve changed and simply altering settings until you’re happy with them is definitely the way to go. Another thing to try if you’ve not done it already is to lower the tyre pressures slightly. The 36F, 42R stated in some manuals is way too high and gives a very harsh ride. I’m down to 33F and 36R but always ride solo and have aftermarket suspension.

[captainscarlet]

Hmm I have to say much of your post conflicts with what I understand.  Like you I am not a street racer, in fact I consider myself to be the text book definition of average.  Average height: 178cm.  Average weight: 85kg in my birthday suit.  Average ability.  The one exception is my stunning good looks. 😜

From the factory the top of the forks sit at the top of the yolks.  Raising the fork height and thereby dropping the front end will change the geometry of the bike and make it quicker steering.  You've essentially made the bike less stable by raising the forks.  It will do absolutely nothing for stiffness.  The Tracer is not exactly a slow steering bike to start with, but each to their own.  You mention raising the forks to the "mid setting"; what do you mean by that?

This is a great little video by Dave Moss that explains, simply, what sag is:

You seem to be wrongly associating rebound and sag with each other.  Sag is how much of your suspension travel is used up with you simply sitting on the bike.  Rebound is how quickly and smoothly the suspension returns to its resting position after being compressed.

Before doing any adjustments you need to first determine what your rider sag is.  This is how much the suspension compresses (from fully extended) with you sitting on the bike in your normal riding kit.  The rule of thumb is that approx. 30% of the available travel should be used up, just sitting on the bike.  On the Tracer this equates to about 40 mm front and back.  The amount of sag is controlled by adjusting the preload.

The front fork springs on the Tracer are designed for your average Japanese who is considerably lighter than your average European/American.  This means that for me (Mr Average) there is not enough preload at the front end from the factory.  When I measured my rider sag on the factory settings I was at something like 55 mm.  In order to get close to my desired sag of 40 mm I had to apply maximum preload.  Even at max preload I could only get down to 43 mm sag.

At the rear the reverse was the case.  On the factory rebound setting (right in the middle of the available adjustment) I had too little sag, 27 mm.  I ended up at minimum preload at the rear which gave me 33 mm of rider sag.  So I'm full hard and full soft at front and rear respectively to get somewhere close to the ideal operating range for the suspension; not ideal.

Rebound controls how quickly the suspension returns to its resting position after being compressed.  You can get a good initial setting in the garage.  You want to push down on the front end and see how it responds when you release it.  You're looking for a relatively quick and smooth upwards travel past the resting point before the forks smoothly settle back at rest.  You don't want it to bounce or pogo.  Same at the rear, one smooth bounce returning to the rest position.

Once all the above is done it's time to go out on your desired test track to fine tune the rebound.

The only way to get decent adjustment is to start changing components.

CS

[duhs10]

9 hours ago, BBB said:

Preload is another area where your descriptions are slightly off. When you increase preload, you again alter ride height (increasing preload increases ride height) and you do not stiffen the suspension as you have not altered the spring rate at all.

On a linear rate spring this is 100% correct... I could be wrong but on a progressive rate spring reducing preload might put the initial rate at a lower rate until the spring starts compressing. Where as increasing preload will use up some of the lower rate and you will start off at a higher spring rate. 

Am I thinking about that correctly?

[BBB]

Spot on @duhs10. 👍🏻

[betoney]

13 hours ago, captainscarlet said:

Hmm I have to say much of your post conflicts with what I understand.  Like you I am not a street racer, in fact I consider myself to be the text book definition of average.  Average height: 178cm.  Average weight: 85kg in my birthday suit.  Average ability.  The one exception is my stunning good looks. 😜

From the factory the top of the forks sit at the top of the yolks.  Raising the fork height and thereby dropping the front end will change the geometry of the bike and make it quicker steering.  You've essentially made the bike less stable by raising the forks.  It will do absolutely nothing for stiffness.  The Tracer is not exactly a slow steering bike to start with, but each to their own.  You mention raising the forks to the "mid setting"; what do you mean by that?

This is a great little video by Dave Moss that explains, simply, what sag is:

You seem to be wrongly associating rebound and sag with each other.  Sag is how much of your suspension travel is used up with you simply sitting on the bike.  Rebound is how quickly and smoothly the suspension returns to its resting position after being compressed.

Before doing any adjustments you need to first determine what your rider sag is.  This is how much the suspension compresses (from fully extended) with you sitting on the bike in your normal riding kit.  The rule of thumb is that approx. 30% of the available travel should be used up, just sitting on the bike.  On the Tracer this equates to about 40 mm front and back.  The amount of sag is controlled by adjusting the preload.

The front fork springs on the Tracer are designed for your average Japanese who is considerably lighter than your average European/American.  This means that for me (Mr Average) there is not enough preload at the front end from the factory.  When I measured my rider sag on the factory settings I was at something like 55 mm.  In order to get close to my desired sag of 40 mm I had to apply maximum preload.  Even at max preload I could only get down to 43 mm sag.

At the rear the reverse was the case.  On the factory rebound setting (right in the middle of the available adjustment) I had too little sag, 27 mm.  I ended up at minimum preload at the rear which gave me 33 mm of rider sag.  So I'm full hard and full soft at front and rear respectively to get somewhere close to the ideal operating range for the suspension; not ideal.

Rebound controls how quickly the suspension returns to its resting position after being compressed.  You can get a good initial setting in the garage.  You want to push down on the front end and see how it responds when you release it.  You're looking for a relatively quick and smooth upwards travel past the resting point before the forks smoothly settle back at rest.  You don't want it to bounce or pogo.  Same at the rear, one smooth bounce returning to the rest position.

Once all the above is done it's time to go out on your desired test track to fine tune the rebound.

The only way to get decent adjustment is to start changing components.

CS

Spot on with your explanation.

And EVERYONE should watch a few Dave Moss videos.  The man knows suspension!!

[lakegastonhank]

Ok, apparently either I misstated my changes or you guys got it wrong. Here is what I did: If you look at your forks, you will see quite a range of adjustment there. I raised my forks to the "mid-range" of that adjustment. (In my opinion, where it should be to start) It rode so much better at that setting, but was still way to stiff.

So, I BACKED OFF the fork preload, RAISING the adjustment bolt to 13mm above the top of the fork. I RAISED the rebound adjustment to just above max, which slows down the "bounciness" of the fork, and measured it at also 13mm above.

Rear shock: I dropped spring preload to one stop above minimum. I also increased rebound here by one full turn, also slowing down bounciness, which I had not noticed as it was way to stiff, for ME. 

Here is my ride report today:

Latest changes to Suspension

As I have said before, the suspension was WAY too stiff as I brought it home. Forks were as low as they could go in triple tree. Yikes!

Raised forks to middle adjustment and much better. Suspension still WAY too stiff.

So, Raised forks to 13mm above triple tree and softened spring preload to 13mm above full hard. Stiffened rebound to ½ turn below max.

Rear shock: loosened preload to one above minimum. Increased rebound to just below max.

Took her for a ride today to test changes: OMG, changes were awesome. On the 35min ride to the test track, bike was awesome. Totally confidence inspiring into and out of high speed corners. Tracks straight and true.

At test track, I was able to up speed from 20mph to 30mph and started noticing rubber being laid down. Hands never fell asleep during full ride and on test track. Awesome!

I hope I have not mislead anyone and I state again, these changes are for ME and they work for ME on the road and on my test track. I was hoping most world take from this that making changes, even simple ones, should be tested, notated and then lead to further adjustments. Thanks to all who responded.

[lakegastonhank]

A few notes on “SAG”

When I was racing motocross for many years, we started on the bikes by measuring sag, at both front and rear, then taking the bike off the stand and “bouncing” the bike with a rider, and measuring whether the rear or front came up more. We adjusted from there to “equalize” the bike so that both front and rear were “equal”. After all further adjustments you want to get back to this balance. There is no “standard” sag measurement.

This was the preliminary check and is indeed what you want in the end, equal on both ends. But, this is just the first and last measurements you want. Each track required different measurements here. A hard pack “blue groove” red clay track might require more rear sag and a sand track might require more front sag, or visa versa.

On these race bikes you needed to change stiffness and rebound for each individual track, and then come back to a balanced bike.

On my street bikes this is also true. Start with a “balanced” bike with equal sag and rebound both front and rear. (Rebound is when the suspension is “squished”, it should come back to where it was, not bouncing far above that mark)

If your bike is too stiff, you reduce spring preload, then check the rebound. This is necessary for both front and rear. (On most top level motocross bikes you have adjustment for both compression AND rebound, as well as spring preload. To make it even more confusing, we used to remove a chain link to shorten the swing arm at certain tracks!) Fortunately most street bikes are fairly simple to adjust.

Knowing this, the above posts may make more sense. I hope I haven’t confused anyone.

[betoney]

3 hours ago, lakegastonhank said:

Ok, apparently either I misstated my changes or you guys got it wrong. Here is what I did: If you look at your forks, you will see quite a range of adjustment there. I raised my forks to the "mid-range" of that adjustment. (In my opinion, where it should be to start) It rode so much better at that setting, but was still way to stiff.

So, I BACKED OFF the fork preload, RAISING the adjustment bolt to 13mm above the top of the fork. I RAISED the rebound adjustment to just above max, which slows down the "bounciness" of the fork, and measured it at also 13mm above.

 

@lakegastonhank  I think you lost some of us with your description of some of your settings.  I know what the adjusters are and what they do but I was confused by some of the things you were describing. 

" If you look at your forks, you will see quite a range of adjustment there. I raised my forks to the "mid-range" of that adjustment"

Are you talking about the preload adjuster or raising the forks in the clamps?  Ive never heard of a "range of adjustment" on fork height.

"It rode so much better at that setting, but was still way to stiff".

Again, preload or fork height? because raising the forks wont make the forks stiff.

I RAISED the rebound adjustment to just above max, which slows down the "bounciness" of the fork, and measured it at also 13mm above.

How do you RAISE the rebound adjuster above max?  13mm above what?  The rebound adjuster is the click setting on the fork cap, it either turns left or right, it doesnt RAISE.  I am so confused by your descriptions.

 

[captainscarlet]

8 hours ago, lakegastonhank said:

.....

I'm having trouble with the new forum and commenting quotes so I've re-posted your text in italics and written my responses underneath the appropriate sections. 

"Ok, apparently either I misstated my changes or you guys got it wrong. Here is what I did: If you look at your forks, you will see quite a range of adjustment there. I raised my forks to the "mid-range" of that adjustment. (In my opinion, where it should be to start) It rode so much better at that setting, but was still way to stiff."

I'm afraid you're mixing your terminology.  You have not moved your forks at all.  Your forks have remained exactly where they are.  If you had moved your forks you would need to have loosened the bolts in the triple trees to then physically move the forks up or down.  What you have done is adjust your preload in or out and in your case you stated that you'd wound it out.

"As I have said before, the suspension was WAY too stiff as I brought it home. Forks were as low as they could go in triple tree. Yikes!

Raised forks to middle adjustment and much better. Suspension still WAY too stiff.

So, Raised forks to 13mm above triple tree and softened spring preload to 13mm above full hard"

Again you're mixing your terminology.  You have not raised the forks 13 mm above the triple trees...or have you??  You have adjusted the preload adjuster so that 13 mm is showing on the preload adjuster.  The factory setting is 16 mm.  Based on your descriptions you picked the bike up from the dealer with the preload adjuster wound all the way in.  Given that the springs in a Tracer are designed for a featherweight Japanese this is actually where most people end up as the front end has way too much sag from the factory.  However as you point out suspension is a personal thing and you prefer what you prefer.

When I was racing motocross for many years, we started on the bikes by measuring sag, at both front and rear, then taking the bike off the stand and “bouncing” the bike with a rider, and measuring whether the rear or front came up more. We adjusted from there to “equalize” the bike so that both front and rear were “equal”. After all further adjustments you want to get back to this balance. There is no “standard” sag measurement.

Sag and rebound are in no way connected.  Sag is how the bike sits with you on it at rest and determines how much of the initial travel has been used up.  Whilst there is no "standard" sag as you put it there are in fact standard starting points.  The general rule for street bikes is 30 to 40 mm front and back and for race bikes 20 to 30 mm.  Another rule of thumb is that your rider sag should be about 30% of total suspension travel.  Another generally accepted starting point is that you want the bike level so that you have the same sag values front and rear.  Of course some people, depending on use, want a bit more front bias which means reducing sag at the back, raising it up and tipping the weight forward.  The desired sag is obtained by adjusting preload.  What this means is that you deliberately use up some of the springs available travel.  You are NOT making the spring stiffer.  The spring still compresses at the same rate.  All you have done by adding preload is reduce the amount of available travel.  This feels like the spring is stiffer because you're getting to the end of it's travel quicker than if you had less preload.  All this based on linear springs.  By setting the preload to around 30% of the available travel with you on the bike at rest, you are putting the suspension in the optimal performance range.

Rebound is how quickly and smoothly the suspension returns to it's starting point having been compressed.  Adjusting preload (sag) will NOT affect rebound.  For example: I set my bike up for me riding solo so the sag is at 35 mm front and rear and the rebound is dialed in correctly.  I then decide to take a pillion or a load of luggage which increases my sag at the rear.  I add more preload to get me back to 35 mm.  I do NOT need to touch the rebound as that has already been set.

I hope I have not mislead anyone and I state again, these changes are for ME and they work for ME on the road and on my test track. I was hoping most world take from this that making changes, even simple ones, should be tested, notated and then lead to further adjustments. Thanks to all who responded.

As I said you seem to have your terminology mixed up.  But I totally agree that suspension is a very personal thing and that EVERYONE should adjust their suspension to suit them.

CS

[lakegastonhank]

Yamaha suspension settings continued

Once again, I apologize for any confusion in this thread. I should have included photos, my bad.

In the photo of the fork in the top triple tree clamp, you can see the wider area at the top of the fork leg. This is the range you can raise or lower the fork in the triple tree clamps. As I stated, mine were as LOW in the triple tree clamps possible, which is one confusing issue here. The bike was set up with the “longest” possible fork length which means the bike is as high as it can be. Great for straight line stability but not very nimble turning.

In essence, I lowered my front end, which transfers weight to the front of the bike. This simply makes the bike steer quicker and easier. It sacrifices some of your max lean angle but this is no problem riding on the street.

The next photo shows the spring pre-load adjuster nut that physically moves up and down. Tightening it down, raises the spring pre-load. As I stated, mine arrived very “stiff” and this adjustment was way lower than you see in this photo. I “lessened” the pre-load by turning this nut out (raising it). What you see here is 13mm up; not quite as high as it can go. According to my service manual, the standard pre-load setting is 16mm UP, the minimum setting (spring pre-load) is 19mm up and the max pre-load is only 4mm up. My bikes original setting was 8mm up. Pretty stiff.

Now, to clarify this a bit on spring pre-load (keep in mind there is a pre-load adjustment on the rear shock as well) this adjustment does exactly what it sounds like. It “Pre-loads” the spring, making it stiffer or softer. My bike was way too stiff for me.

Finally, the rebound adjusting screw sits inside the pre-load adjustment nut. To find where yours is set simply turn the screw clockwise (you will hear clicks, count them as you go) until it stops, Do NOT attempt to go any further. The standard setting is different for different models, but for my 2015 FJ-09, it is seven clicks out (counter-clockwise) from the full firm setting.

Now, back to sag measurement. Any preload adjustment will change both the “static” sag measurement and the rider weight measurement. As I have no assistant to help with these measurements, I will have to go by “feel” until later. Does the bike go down equally at front and rear? Or, is it biased either way. You want a balance here.

With an assistant, or even a video camera, you can tell where the bike “rebounds” from being compressed. Is it rebounding higher than it was with just the rider’s weight? Or less? This is where your rebound adjustment comes in. This should be your final adjustment. More rebound dampening or less so that the compressed, or bounced suspension returns to where it was with only the rider’s weight on it.

[BBB]

Reading this thread has made by brain hurt, but finally I can see that you’ve raised the forks in the triple trees.

At risk of prompting another lengthy reply: I set front sag by putting a cable tie on the fork stanchion, right up near the fork seal and then ride hard on a twisty route. After many bumps and hard  braking the cable tie should have moved down the stanchion but you should have around 10-15mm of “spare travel” left for that deep pothole that you never saw. Less than 10mm and you need to increase preload, much more than 10mm and you can back off the preload. Doing this sets up your bike for dynamic sag, or “real world” riding.

[lakegastonhank]

Thanks  BBB, excellent idea. I promise no more lengthy replies...

[chitown]

Quote

Now, to clarify this a bit on spring pre-load (keep in mind there is a pre-load adjustment on the rear shock as well) this adjustment does exactly what it sounds like. It “Pre-loads” the spring, making it stiffer or softer. My bike was way too stiff for me.

While folks (including me in the past) will express it like this, realize that you're only making it stiffer/softer for a very small amount of the useable travel. While this will give you the feeling you desire on smooth services and generally low speeds it will not achieve the goal of making it stiffer/softer when dealing with rougher surfaces and higher speeds. For that you need to change the spring rate which preload doesn't do other than for a very small range of operation. If you're taking out preload and like the way your bike handles, great. But clarifying what's going on here might help riders trying to solve their issues by dialing a lot of preload and wondering why they can't get it to work in their situation. 

As mentioned above, carefully study the available travel numbers on a bike (which are DRY numbers) before taking a big bite at changing fork height in the triples. You can calculate where the danger zone is or use real-world riding and zip ties if you trust yourself to max it out. Depending on the bike and the forks this can mean destroyed forks, cut brake lines, radiator damage, fender damage, etc. There are good suspension tuners on this board that will likely be happy to answer any questions without trying to sell you something -- but will call out where the limits of the stock suspension are. 

Check out Traxxion's Suspension For Mortals series of videos on youtube. Highly educational and helps get our "suspension speak" aligned