Hunting / surging and C0 settings

[scholgs]

My Tracer has always surged a little when running at low speed (around 10-25 mph) in first and second gears. From my research it seems that the switching between the closed loop and open loop fuel injection modes causes this, as the closed loop runs lean.
 
Different bikes may have this to different degrees, but it seems that the dash allows you change the C0 settings to make your bike run richer (as far as I understand).
 
On the MT-09 forums, a lot of users have done this and set their bikes to +14 to make the mix richer and smooth out that hunting/surging.
 
On the MT-09 +14 is the max.
On the Tracer, the CO settings run from -126 to +126.
I've tried a small uplift from the default 0 to +10 and it seems to have smoothed out the surging. I might try it a little higher.
 
If anyone else has tried this, or knows more about the available range and effect on fuelling please let us know!
 
To get into the settings, turn off the bike,  hold down both Reset and TCS buttons on the dash and turn the bike on.
Hold it for about 5-10 seconds. The dash will show DIAG mode is activated. Switch it to CO but pressing both buttons at the same time (without holding down) or just one of them - I can't quite remember which.
 
You then get the ability to change the CO setting for each cylinder. Press both buttons to set, and one or the other to increase/decrease the number. The higher the CO setting the richer the mix (again as I understand it - I take no responsibility here - other users may be able to verify this). When set for all cylinders just switch off to save.
 
You can always reset to default of 0 on all 3.
 
I welcome anybody else's thoughts on this...

[aussietracer]

Following.

[jimf]

I found this video outlining the procedure for the MT-09:
 

 
There's a lot of discussion here, although not much that I'd call "analytical":
 
 
I'm going to wait until after break-in (and especially throttle body adjustment) before messing with it, but I likely will try it because I've noticed some low-RPM surging, and of course off-throttle can be a little abrupt (although B mode is pretty smooth IMO). If that's fixable with a few button presses I'll do a happy dance.
 
Regardless, I love this Brave New World where you can tune the engine from the dashboard. That's kind of a lot more convenient than tearing out the carbs and changing needles or needle height....

[jimf]

(The auto-embedding of YouTube video is a Very Cool feature of this site's software. Post a link, it embeds automagically. Thumbs up to the developer, that's clever and useful.)

[skipperT]

You can try it. It can usually help with the lean surging.
The numbers don't correlate to anything, except +1 equals more gas. You need an ega machine to REALLY know what changes you are making and it must be measured with the fresh air (AIS) bypassed. On our bike, it also must be measured BEFORE the cat. If the cat is removed, this doesn't matter.
 
As far as I know, until someone here tells me "it's different overseas" - US models are locked out. You cannot do this on either a U.S. Model FZ 09 or FJ 09 without a laptop and the appropriate dealer software.
 
Sorry.
-Skip

[johan]

I found this video outlining the procedure for the MT-09: 

 
There's a lot of discussion here, although not much that I'd call "analytical":
 
 
I'm going to wait until after break-in (and especially throttle body adjustment) before messing with it, but I likely will try it because I've noticed some low-RPM surging, and of course off-throttle can be a little abrupt (although B mode is pretty smooth IMO). If that's fixable with a few button presses I'll do a happy dance.
 
Regardless, I love this Brave New World where you can tune the engine from the dashboard. That's kind of a lot more convenient than tearing out the carbs and changing needles or needle height....

Brave new world indeed. It begs the question, why would the engines not have been set optimally by default? Is it because Yamaha sets them to idle lean in order to pass some EU (or US/California - insert the nanny state of your preference) reg on emissions?

[Cruizin]

I found this video outlining the procedure for the MT-09: 

 
There's a lot of discussion here, although not much that I'd call "analytical":
 
 
I'm going to wait until after break-in (and especially throttle body adjustment) before messing with it, but I likely will try it because I've noticed some low-RPM surging, and of course off-throttle can be a little abrupt (although B mode is pretty smooth IMO). If that's fixable with a few button presses I'll do a happy dance.
 
Regardless, I love this Brave New World where you can tune the engine from the dashboard. That's kind of a lot more convenient than tearing out the carbs and changing needles or needle height....

 
 
Sorry for deleting the link to that forum but they always delete links to this forum and I am simply following suit. Sorry! I'd much rather that we have our own discussions as that is a competing forum and I'd rather not be sending people away from here.

[jimf]

Regardless, I love this Brave New World where you can tune the engine from the dashboard. That's kind of a lot more convenient than tearing out the carbs and changing needles or needle height....

Brave new world indeed. It begs the question, why would the engines not have been set optimally by default? Is it because Yamaha sets them to idle lean in order to pass some EU (or US/California - insert the nanny state of your preference) reg on emissions?

I would bet on emissions regulations.  As they got more stringent for bikes we saw lots of too-lean-from-factory off-idle tunings even in the carb days.  I drilled out my share of brass caps over idle circuit adjustment screws over the years.  This is waaay easier.

[jimf]

Sorry for deleting the link to that forum but they always delete links to this forum and I am simply following suit. Sorry! I'd much rather that we have our own discussions as that is a competing forum and I'd rather not be sending people away from here.

 
Well, I knew there were some sites that were forum-non-grata around here, but I didn't think that was one of them. In the future if you could at least put something like (link deleted by admin) in there in place of the link it would be helpful, otherwise the message makes less sense. The way it reads right now you might think the video has a lot of discussion and it just doesn't. That makes me look (more) stupid.
 
At the other site there are pages and pages of discussion about different tunings and its effects which is clearly not going to be reproduced here, no matter our intentions. In the interest of being helpful, here's the core summary that I took away from it:
 
* +10 to +14 on all cylinders usually works the best, significantly smoothing low-throttle responsiveness in A and STD modes.
 
* Pay attention to coolant temperature before and after the change. It will probably drop, some people reported as much as 10F, but some people reported increased temperature. If you see the latter, you probably want to go back to the default. It's hard to see why it should ever see an increase, if it's getting more fuel, but that's what some people reported.
 
I'd love it if someone with a dyno and gas analyzer took a look to see what this actually does. That's beyond my limited resources.
 

[Cruizin]

Soon, a fuel controller and dyno engineer will be joining this forum and they have been a huge resource on the FZ-07 forum. The owner of this company actually invented the Dynojet Dyno and they are testing an FJ-09 right now.
 
2wheeldynoworks is getting his FJ-09 tune ready and will be gracing us with his presence soon. He helped Flashtune create tunes and maps for the FJ-09 and they are almost ready to share some info and start selling mail order tunes to us.
 
The bike came out in November and everyone is scrambling trying to get products out and testing and engineering completed.
 
Very good stuff is coming soon.

[jimf]

The bike came out in November and everyone is scrambling trying to get products out and testing and engineering completed. 
Very good stuff is coming soon.

It's very clear that it's early days for the aftermarket.  To be honest, I'm surprised at how much stuff is out there already.  Other than engine tuning solutions I was able to order everything I felt I wanted/needed, although a number of things are still backordered. 
Yamaha seem to have severely underestimated the demand for the bike accessories, and possibly the bike sales as well (we'll know for sure in a few months if there end up being waiting lists for the bike).  I think they hit a sweet spot that was not well served by anyone else except perhaps Triumph with their Tiger and Street Triple, both bikes that have been missing factory support for touring options for years now.
 
So on the one hand, it's nice to be in on the ground floor of such a nice bike, and on the other ... sure would like it if Yamaha would ship me my stuff :-).

[skipperT]

 
 
I'd love it if someone with a dyno and gas analyzer took a look to see what this actually does. That's beyond my limited resources.

 
 
Jim- see my above post.
 
Adding numbers (+1, 2 etc) even if you start with a -5 for example, will richer the mixture at idle.
 
There is NO WAY to give you an exact number of "improvement" as every bike is different, and the environmental conditions (altitude, etc) are different.
 
As you said, +10-14 increase is usually a good bet.
This DOESNT EFFECT FUELING above idle/ part throttle. Think of it like an air/mixture screw.
 
It also WON'T EFFECT the bike AT ALL if it is in closed loop mode!
 
It also MUST BE DONE by the dealer using Yamaha software!
 
(And yes, I DO know what I'm talking about.)
 
The tuners, etc who are coming out with maps, etc will have to also defeat closed loop mode if they want to have any effect on the mixture at idle. Dyno jet does this already if you buy a PC V and you install something called an O2 optimizer.
 
-Skip
 

[mcycleguy45]

My Tracer has always surged a little when running at low speed (around 10-25 mph) in first and second gears. From my research it seems that the switching between the closed loop and open loop fuel injection modes causes this, as the closed loop runs lean. 
Different bikes may have this to different degrees, but it seems that the dash allows you change the C0 settings to make your bike run richer (as far as I understand).
 
On the MT-09 forums, a lot of users have done this and set their bikes to +14 to make the mix richer and smooth out that hunting/surging.
 
On the MT-09 +14 is the max.
On the Tracer, the CO settings run from -126 to +126.
I've tried a small uplift from the default 0 to +10 and it seems to have smoothed out the surging. I might try it a little higher.
 
If anyone else has tried this, or knows more about the available range and effect on fuelling please let us know!
 
To get into the settings, turn off the bike,  hold down both Reset and TCS buttons on the dash and turn the bike on.
Hold it for about 5-10 seconds. The dash will show DIAG mode is activated. Switch it to CO but pressing both buttons at the same time (without holding down) or just one of them - I can't quite remember which.
 
You then get the ability to change the CO setting for each cylinder. Press both buttons to set, and one or the other to increase/decrease the number. The higher the CO setting the richer the mix (again as I understand it - I take no responsibility here - other users may be able to verify this). When set for all cylinders just switch off to save.
 
You can always reset to default of 0 on all 3.
 
I welcome anybody else's thoughts on this...
 
  

There seems to be some confusion about how Open and Closed loops work in an engine.  As a Licensed Automotive technician with 20+ years experience I will try to shed some light on the subject.  
 
Open loop means that the computer is ignoring the actual O2 sensor readings and substituting a preprogrammed set of measurements for the O2 sensors.   This would be under conditions such as start-up, or if the computer reads a problem (such as a O2 sensor grossly out of spec) due to faulty sensor, leaky injector, vacuum leak from the intake, etc.   The computer will then basically ignore the various sensor readings and default to a set of preset parameters, turn on the check engine light and let you ride home.    
 
To provide accurate readings the O2 sensors must be Hot!!
 
Closed loop occurs when the engine and O2 sensors reach sufficient temperature to provide accurate readings from the O2 sensors to the engine controller, which in turn will then control fuel mixture and ignition directly according to various sensor readings.   In the old days they used to rely solely on exhaust gas temperature to warm things up, nowadays they have heaters in the O2's to help them warm up more quickly.    This helps the engine reach Closed loop more quickly and lets the engine controller take over more quickly and adjust the fuel mixture directly according to readings taken from the O2 sensors .  
 
In short, Closed loop occurs when the engine reaches a certain temperature.   It is not related to RPM.    It does not matter if the engine is idling or at WOT, it stays in closed loop once the Coolant temp and O2 temp gets hot enough.   This would eliminate the cause of the surging you are all feeling being "switching from closed to open loop" as has been suggested.   
 
It is much more likely a throttle body balance problem.  
 
And I believe that North Americans cannot alter the Factory fuel mapping due to emissions laws.  
 
Hope this helps!!

[skipperT]

It helps but you are incorrect about when it goes closed loop vs open loop.
 
Some motorcycles also use heated O2 sensors. But they are narrow band, and operate from 0-1 volt. When they go into closed loop vs open loop is different then cars. It also varies from bike to bike and manufacturer to manufacturer.
 
-skip
 
 

[mcycleguy45]

It helps but you are incorrect about when it goes closed loop vs open loop.  
Some motorcycles also use heated O2 sensors. But they are narrow band, and operate from 0-1 volt. When they go into closed loop vs open loop is different then cars. It also varies from bike to bike and manufacturer to manufacturer.
 
-skip
 

I will admit that all of my professional experience is on cars, with the exception of my own bikes of course, and this is my first FI bike.     I did not realize that bikes were different.  I am old enough and not  foolish enough  to think that I know everything!!    I stand corrected.    
 
So bikes can slip into Open loop at idle?    What would be the purpose?