Stock suspension settings for heavier riders

[pattonme]

the Motion Pro or Traxxion Dynamics fork bleeder assist tool but do not know the size thread for the OEM damper rods.

M10x1.0. The Traxxion tool comes with both ends counter-sunk so it covers all 4 of the major options. I recently bought one myself. For years I just used a chunk of 1/2 AL rod and tapped either end. 1 liter is enough to do both legs; you'll use about 450ml. VI in forks isn't very important since there is a HUGE amount of oil in the system and the damping is incredibly light so the oil gets "worked" very little. Shocks are the complete opposite.
 
Yikes! do NOT get the Torco RFF in 7W. They're labeling their product with cSt@100 instead of @40 which everybody else in the world seems to use.
http://www.torcousa.com/technology/RFF.pdf
http://www.torcousa.com/technology/RSF.pdf
 
Looks like I need to edit my oil chart.
 
 

[fj09chris]

I guess I'm gonna look into replacing springs and such. I do agree that it is pretty essential. Just didn't wanna do any heavy modifying right away I just wanna ride!

If you get the spring rate correct and matched front to rear, you will absolutely enjoy an improved ride.   
The damping might still be off, but correct springs will ride much better than stock, even if you don't address the damping.

[2and3cylinders]

the Motion Pro or Traxxion Dynamics fork bleeder assist tool but do not know the size thread for the OEM damper rods.

M10x1.0. The Traxxion tool comes with both ends counter-sunk so it covers all 4 of the major options. I recently bought one myself. For years I just used a chunk of 1/2 AL rod and tapped either end. 1 liter is enough to do both legs; you'll use about 450ml. VI in forks isn't very important since there is a HUGE amount of oil in the system and the damping is incredibly light so the oil gets "worked" very little. Shocks are the complete opposite. 
Yikes! do NOT get the Torco RFF in 7W. They're labeling their product with cSt@100 instead of @40 which everybody else in the world seems to use.
http://www.torcousa.com/technology/RFF.pdf
http://www.torcousa.com/technology/RSF.pdf
 
Looks like I need to edit my oil chart.
 

So the Torco RFF 5 wt is OK in conjunction with your reworked damping as we discussed but too heavy for just running heavier springs (which the consensus being what works well is something closer to 10 CSt@40C)?
 
Is there any issue running shock fluid (of the proper weight) in forks?

[pattonme]

Shock vs Fork - it's oil, well suspension fluid either way. That's what matters in this game of horse-shoes.
 

[2and3cylinders]

Shock vs Fork - it's oil, well suspension fluid either way. That's what matters in this game of horse-shoes.

I knew that but was insecure enough in my old age to need to ask...

[Guest autobiker]

My last measured rider sag was 36mm front and 29mm rear. I have since increased fork preload by 1 "ring", and reduce shock preload by 1 step. I don't have the exact sag figures now but they should be in the "1/3 of total travel range". I have also increased fork rebound by 1/2 turn and shock rebound by 1/4 turn from factory default. 
I dropped by my workshop today to replace the anemic stock horn with a pair of Hella twin tones. I also took the chance to move the fork tubes up the triple clamp by 8mm. I will test the new setup out over the weekend and make more measurements / adjustments.
 
I am thinking of starting with swapping out the fork springs and using a lighter fork oil.

Reporting back after a nice Sunday morning ride with my girl in the passenger seat. We're about 130lbs each in full gear, so I increased shock preload to 6 (out of 7) and dialed in "one ring" more fork preload to reduce fork dive. The bike was more controlled and quite acceptable over smooth pavement, but the front was still shaky at 80mph. I think the handguards might have something to do with it, so I will be replacing the handguards with FZ-09 bar ends. The bike also felt harsh and "jumpy" over B-roads. Every bump in the road was sent through the seat to my arse and sometimes I bounced off the seat. Is this a sign of too much compression or rebound damping?

[pattonme]

maybe I'm nit-picking here where straight rate springs are concerned, fork preload is not increased to "reduce fork dive". Preload only moves your balance point at rest - ie how much suspension is taken up given the amount of weight in the saddle. The suspension will compress just as fast given the same approach speed and same height of the bump with no or max preload. The bike will pitch forward and move thru it's stroke at the same rate no matter how much preload you have in the system. (caveat, assumes you don't have so much preload as to have topped out the suspension and compressed the top-out spring)
 
Being bounced off the seat is an indication of either of 2 conditions - compression stack too stiff so the shock is momentarily rigid and the upward impact force is largely applied to your bum, or the shock compressed but now the spring is trying to get get rid of the potential energy and the rebound damping is insufficient to keep the rate of extension in check so it accelerates your bum into the air.
 
Fundamentally @autobiker, the stock suspension is just sh*t except for a very small cross section of riders who just so happen to fit the parameters or have a relaxed concept of acceptable behavior.
 
 
 

[xlxr]

My last measured rider sag was 36mm front and 29mm rear. I have since increased fork preload by 1 "ring", and reduce shock preload by 1 step. I don't have the exact sag figures now but they should be in the "1/3 of total travel range". I have also increased fork rebound by 1/2 turn and shock rebound by 1/4 turn from factory default. 
I dropped by my workshop today to replace the anemic stock horn with a pair of Hella twin tones. I also took the chance to move the fork tubes up the triple clamp by 8mm. I will test the new setup out over the weekend and make more measurements / adjustments.
 
I am thinking of starting with swapping out the fork springs and using a lighter fork oil.

Reporting back after a nice Sunday morning ride with my girl in the passenger seat. We're about 130lbs each in full gear, so I increased shock preload to 6 (out of 7) and dialed in "one ring" more fork preload to reduce fork dive. The bike was more controlled and quite acceptable over smooth pavement, but the front was still shaky at 80mph. I think the handguards might have something to do with it, so I will be replacing the handguards with FZ-09 bar ends. The bike also felt harsh and "jumpy" over B-roads. Every bump in the road was sent through the seat to my arse and sometimes I bounced off the seat. Is this a sign of too much compression or rebound damping?

The cheapest thing you can do is add some oil to the forks to control bottoming better.  Reduce shock preload and damping to the minimum that will avoid harsh bottoming and minimize getting thrown off the seat when riding two up.  And then raise the forks to lower the front end to get more weight on it while riding two up to stabilize it at high speeds.  and, slow down.  Then try to soften things up for solo.  This will not fix the bad suspension, may not even make it tolerable, but is the cheapest thing to try.  I have no idea how much oil to add or other details. 

[Guest autobiker]

maybe I'm nit-picking here where straight rate springs are concerned, fork preload is not increased to "reduce fork dive". Preload only moves your balance point at rest - ie how much suspension is taken up given the amount of weight in the saddle. The suspension will compress just as fast given the same approach speed and same height of the bump with no or max preload. The bike will pitch forward and move thru it's stroke at the same rate no matter how much preload you have in the system. (caveat, assumes you don't have so much preload as to have topped out the suspension and compressed the top-out spring) 
Being bounced off the seat is an indication of either of 2 conditions - compression stack too stiff so the shock is momentarily rigid and the upward impact force is largely applied to your bum, or the shock compressed but now the spring is trying to get get rid of the potential energy and the rebound damping is insufficient to keep the rate of extension in check so it accelerates your bum into the air.
 
Fundamentally @autobiker , the stock suspension is just sh*t except for a very small cross section of riders who just so happen to fit the parameters or have a relaxed concept of acceptable behavior.
 
 

Thanks for the very clear explanation on how preload works, Matt. I have been wrong about it all these years! :|
 
I've gotten in touch with the local distributor for Matris suspensions. It's only a matter of time before I save enough for the full cartridge kit and KF shock with HPA. I do wonder if the much cheaper fork spring / valve kit and KD shock would suffice for road / touring use.
 
Meanwhile, I will reset the preload to give rider sag = 1/3 of total travel, and screw around with the rebound screw (see what I did there?) to get the best out of the crappy stock unit.

[pattonme]

unless there is a major price, service, or availability difference in Matris' favor I would pick the K-tech shock(s) over the Matris. Their damping team is better at this than Matris. The Matris shock also does NOT come with double sets of preload rings which means it's absolutely necessary to get the HPA which adds about $200 to the solution. The F12S fork kit looks pretty good (3 valve system - pretty much unique amongst the players) but I would still put a thin oil in the 'C' leg and not get too carried away with oil thickness in the 'R' leg.
 
If it's a choice of KD vs Ohlins 335 vs K-Tech Razor Lite, I'd rank them in reverse order, not the least because the KD requires the HPA because getting a tool in there is well neigh impossible.
 
The Matris valve kit is hopefully decent, but I can't say from experience. It still just uses the one leg for all damping duties.

[squidproquo]

Just the springs so far.  Installation was not too hard and there are youtube videos that show how to do it. (look up FZ-09 for more video selection)
 
Here's a tool that I used. It just holds the shaft up and still while you tighten/loosten the cap:
 
https://www.amazon.com/MOTORCYCLE-FORK-SPRING-COMPRESSOR-UNIVERSAL/dp/B00P8JQH78/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1501102982&sr=8-2&keywords=fork+spring+tool

So you just swapped the springs only? I have never messed with suspension components before. It sounds like I might wanna go the same route you did, usually ride with at least my side bags which puts me close to 300 pounds. 
Edit: Also might I ask what tool this is you speak of? Thank you.

 

[Guest autobiker]

unless there is a major price, service, or availability difference in Matris' favor I would pick the K-tech shock(s) over the Matris. Their damping team is better at this than Matris. The Matris shock also does NOT come with double sets of preload rings which means it's absolutely necessary to get the HPA which adds about $200 to the solution. The F12S fork kit looks pretty good (3 valve system - pretty much unique amongst the players) but I would still put a thin oil in the 'C' leg and not get too carried away with oil thickness in the 'R' leg. 
If it's a choice of KD vs Ohlins 335 vs K-Tech Razor Lite, I'd rank them in reverse order, not the least because the KD requires the HPA because getting a tool in there is well neigh impossible.
 
The Matris valve kit is hopefully decent, but I can't say from experience. It still just uses the one leg for all damping duties.

I went to the dealer and was told that they had stop carrying K-Tech due to the abysmal sales volume. Thankfully they carry the entire range of Matris and Hyperpro suspensions (I haven't heard good things about progressive springs, though) and price them with low markup and throw in free installation.
 
And you are right about the Matris needing an HPA. I saw an actual unit and found that the preload will be practically not adjustable once the shock is installed! The cartridge kit looks like good value for money though (in the middle between Andreani and Ohlins / Nitron). I might end up combining the Matris cartridge kit with a midrange Ohlins or other brand that offers Preload/Comp/Rebound. Or just go for the top-of-the-line Matris and call it a day (is this a good idea?)
 
Separately, I am still toying with the idea of getting a used '15 R1200RS with ESA. My experience with BMW's system has been great (had a '14 GS). If only I (and more importantly the lady who shall not be offended) can get over the price.

[pattonme]

Or just go for the top-of-the-line Matris and call it a day (is this a good idea?)

 
whatever you can get serviced locally and readily by a knowledgeable/cooperative shop is a good choice.