Counter steering

[santacruz]

I was introduced to counter steering,a few years back by an ex police motorcyclist,i was amazed how a simple nudge of the bars,made the bike turn so easily,with the tracer/fj 09 being so light it works great,do other members use this,or just don't bother.

[Guest lawrenceofsuburbia]

 
 
 
 

I was introduced to counter steering,a few years back by an ex police motorcyclist,i was amazed how a simple nudge of the bars,made the bike turn so easily,with the tracer/fj 09 being so light it works great,do other members use this,or just don't bother.I'm pretty certain that we all do, consciously or not. L of S

 

[wessie]

you wouldn't get around a corner without counter-steering, at anything above walking pace

[philkin]

Indeed, it is the only way to truly steer a motorcycle. You could never race a motorcycle without using it. Other wise an immediate
change of course could never happen. You could never hit your marks on entrance and exit consistently.
Whether you realize it or not you are doing it. It is when you realize this fact you become a much better rider.
Kieth Code wrote several books about it. " A Twist of the Wrist Vol I & II" (USA) Others have taught different techniques but you really can't
change direction quickly without it. If this is new to you please try to get each of these books. It could actually save your life.
 
 

[drduc]

Actually, as soon as you are turning, the front wheel goes to "pro steer", and MUST turn in the direction of travel.
 
As far as racing goes, at the limit, if you push on the bar, at all, even a fraction, you crash. There is a huge amount of time spent ensuring that there is ZERO pressure on the bars, as to no upset the bike , and to cause a front end crash.
 
The myth of countersteering would require that your bike turned from the front wheel, and it doesnt, it turns from the rear, thats why you open the throttle before the apex of a corner, to transfer the load to the rear tire, and make the bike "turn back" and finish the corner.
 
We steer the bike from the CG, always, 100%. when you countersteer the bike, you force the bike to "trip" to the outside , and pivot around the CG. Of you can simply push on the footpegs and turn the bike as quickly as you like. Countersteering relies 100% on the Caster effect to correct the bar input to prevent the bike from crashing, and this is something you can EASILY prove in a simple experiment - 
 
Get your bicycle. I use a mountain bike for the example, but if you are going to do this running, please wear a helmet, as you will always crash, 100% of the time.  Start off walking, and hold the bike from the seat, This is as close to the CG of the bike as you can realistically get. Lean the bike to the right. Notice that the bars turn to the right, and do NOT in fact ever swing left. Try the left lean now. If the theory that you had to countersteer to turn was in fact true, the bicycle would have to countersteer itself to turn, instead of pro steer.
 
Next, and here is the fun one, walk holding the bars. While walking or running, countersteer. The bike will flip itself on the ground now that you have removed the frictive forces and gyro forces that you are counting on to react with the caster effect to center the input.
 
This is yet another perfect example of the bike knowing what to do, and the nut holding the handlebars screwing it all up.
 
BTW, you if want to have REAL fun, take your bicycle, you know, the one you crashed before while countersteering at a walking pace, and affix to it a simple set of vice grips that prevent the bars from turning one direction at all. If you make it so the bars wont turn left at all, then through countersteering, you should ONLY be able to turn left (by pushing right) PLEASE be sure to have a go pro running, and submit the resulting crashes to Fail Army on youtube.
 
I know, it has a religious following, and yes you can make a bike START to turn with CS, but you cannot MAKE it turn with it, the bars MUST turn into the corner, and you can eliminate the tripping effect by simply learning how to turn a bike properly.
 
Will
 

[b12ty]

Sorry Will, you're 100% wrong. Comparing a bicycle at walking speeds is not an accurate test.
 
See here for proof.  No B.S. machine
 
Ty
 
 

[papac2000]

My local MSF course taught counter steering, one of the reasons I'm glad I took it. At higher speeds, it's more apparent how this works. I guess the only time you don't counter steer is in slow speed manouvering.

[zvez]

 
This is pretty spectacularly inaccurate info. Do a Keith Code school and ride the no BS bike(mentioned in another post) if you have any doubts that a motorcycle is steered (with the exception of the slowest of speeds) countersteering.  Just doing track days will actually show you countersteering is the only way to accurately steer a bike a speed. 
 
 

Actually, as soon as you are turning, the front wheel goes to "pro steer", and MUST turn in the direction of travel. 
As far as racing goes, at the limit, if you push on the bar, at all, even a fraction, you crash. There is a huge amount of time spent ensuring that there is ZERO pressure on the bars, as to no upset the bike , and to cause a front end crash.
 
The myth of countersteering would require that your bike turned from the front wheel, and it doesnt, it turns from the rear, thats why you open the throttle before the apex of a corner, to transfer the load to the rear tire, and make the bike "turn back" and finish the corner.
 
We steer the bike from the CG, always, 100%. when you countersteer the bike, you force the bike to "trip" to the outside , and pivot around the CG. Of you can simply push on the footpegs and turn the bike as quickly as you like. Countersteering relies 100% on the Caster effect to correct the bar input to prevent the bike from crashing, and this is something you can EASILY prove in a simple experiment - 
 
Get your bicycle. I use a mountain bike for the example, but if you are going to do this running, please wear a helmet, as you will always crash, 100% of the time.  Start off walking, and hold the bike from the seat, This is as close to the CG of the bike as you can realistically get. Lean the bike to the right. Notice that the bars turn to the right, and do NOT in fact ever swing left. Try the left lean now. If the theory that you had to countersteer to turn was in fact true, the bicycle would have to countersteer itself to turn, instead of pro steer.
 
Next, and here is the fun one, walk holding the bars. While walking or running, countersteer. The bike will flip itself on the ground now that you have removed the frictive forces and gyro forces that you are counting on to react with the caster effect to center the input.
 
This is yet another perfect example of the bike knowing what to do, and the nut holding the handlebars screwing it all up.
 
BTW, you if want to have REAL fun, take your bicycle, you know, the one you crashed before while countersteering at a walking pace, and affix to it a simple set of vice grips that prevent the bars from turning one direction at all. If you make it so the bars wont turn left at all, then through countersteering, you should ONLY be able to turn left (by pushing right) PLEASE be sure to have a go pro running, and submit the resulting crashes to Fail Army on youtube.
 
I know, it has a religious following, and yes you can make a bike START to turn with CS, but you cannot MAKE it turn with it, the bars MUST turn into the corner, and you can eliminate the tripping effect by simply learning how to turn a bike properly.
 
Will

 

[Guest dmizer]

Actually, as soon as you are turning, the front wheel goes to "pro steer", and MUST turn in the direction of travel.

Yes, this is correct.
 

As far as racing goes, at the limit, if you push on the bar, at all, even a fraction, you crash. There is a huge amount of time spent ensuring that there is ZERO pressure on the bars, as to no upset the bike , and to cause a front end crash.

Most certainly true in racing situations at the peak of the turn when you're at your absolute limit. Not so much before or after.
 

The myth of countersteering would require that your bike turned from the front wheel, and it doesnt, it turns from the rear, thats why you open the throttle before the apex of a corner, to transfer the load to the rear tire, and make the bike "turn back" and finish the corner.

The motorcycle completes it's turn with the back wheel, but the turn is not initiated with the back wheel. It's initiated with a combination of the brakes and counter steering.
 

We steer the bike from the CG, always, 100%. when you countersteer the bike, you force the bike to "trip" to the outside , and pivot around the CG. Of you can simply push on the footpegs and turn the bike as quickly as you like. Countersteering relies 100% on the Caster effect to correct the bar input to prevent the bike from crashing, and this is something you can EASILY prove in a simple experiment - 

Yes, we control the lean angle by shifting center of gravity, so we can make a tighter turn, but we don't initiate, or complete a turn by changing the center of gravity. This can be shown by the fact that you can lean off all you want while you go straight, and you will continue to go straight, or maybe slightly veer off course.
 

Get your bicycle. I use a mountain bike for the example, but if you are going to do this running, please wear a helmet, as you will always crash, 100% of the time.  Start off walking, and hold the bike from the seat, This is as close to the CG of the bike as you can realistically get. Lean the bike to the right. Notice that the bars turn to the right, and do NOT in fact ever swing left. Try the left lean now. If the theory that you had to countersteer to turn was in fact true, the bicycle would have to countersteer itself to turn, instead of pro steer.  
Next, and here is the fun one, walk holding the bars. While walking or running, countersteer. The bike will flip itself on the ground now that you have removed the frictive forces and gyro forces that you are counting on to react with the caster effect to center the input.

Bicycles are not good comparisons to motorcycles because motorcycles make powered turns and bicycles make unpowered turns. This means you need a greater safety margin for completing a turn on a bicycle because you need to have room to use countersteering to end the turn. I know this from decades of road racing. Also, a bicycle is so much more incredibly light than a motorcycle that shifting your weight makes a big difference.
 

BTW, you if want to have REAL fun, take your bicycle, you know, the one you crashed before while countersteering at a walking pace, and affix to it a simple set of vice grips that prevent the bars from turning one direction at all. If you make it so the bars wont turn left at all, then through countersteering, you should ONLY be able to turn left (by pushing right) PLEASE be sure to have a go pro running, and submit the resulting crashes to Fail Army on youtube.

 
I think you're getting caught up in the difference between "make a turn" and "initiate a turn", since you yourself even admit that a turn is initiated with counter steering.
 

yes you can make a bike START to turn with CS

I think most people are using "make" to be synonymous with "start", rather than talking about using counter steering to complete the entire turn. Yes, trying to use counter steering to complete an entire turn would result in a crash, as you suggest.

[fzkenm]

My local MSF course taught counter steering, one of the reasons I'm glad I took it. At higher speeds, it's more apparent how this works. I guess the only time you don't counter steer is in slow speed manouvering.

MSF teaches counter steering as essential.  As for racing, watch any race closeups of a bike going through a corner and you'll clearly see that they are counter steering all the way through the corner.  There are many excellent books and U-Tube videos that explain and demonstrate the facts.  There is no reason for someone to believe otherwise, much less use non-relevant examples to attempt to disprove known practice.

[grogsym]

I conciously counter steer and clutchless upshift, it makes for much smoother riding.
These are the things they never teach you in your lessons but are in my opinion essentials for road riding.
I don't really care about the physics when on full tilt reaching an apex, that's for the 1%.

[bmac]

Actually, as soon as you are turning, the front wheel goes to "pro steer", and MUST turn in the direction of travel.

That is the one part of a very inaccurate post that is correct.  
A motorcycle wants to remain vertical and go straight. When a turn is initialized by counter steering you create a force that the motorcycle will try to counter. The longer you resist the force exerted by the motorcycle the more you will turn. 
 
What is done by counter steering is that you are preventing the motorcycle from completely stabilizing on its own and returning to vertical. 

[thruster8999]

Actually, as soon as you are turning, the front wheel goes to "pro steer", and MUST turn in the direction of travel.

That is the one part of a very inaccurate post that is correct.  
A motorcycle wants to remain vertical and go straight. When a turn is initialized by counter steering you create a force that the motorcycle will try to counter. The longer you resist the force exerted by the motorcycle the more you will turn. 
 
What is done by counter steering is that you are preventing the motorcycle from completely stabilizing on its own and returning to vertical. 

[b 
Very well said.

[drduc]

Ive ridden the no BS bike, and rode it thru the cones with no issues. Ive actually ridden several no BS bikes and done so with no effect on the turning. The funnest part of the myth of the no BS bike is that no one will build a pro steer only bike. You could likewise do it on your bike, so the bars only turn one way, but not mine, as I dont want the crash repair.
 
Ive give you a couple of examples -
 
#1 Doug Polen riding down the corkscrew standing on his footpegs arms raised. When I asked him how fast he was going when he did so, his reply was "faster than a club racer could" (I was Polens mechanic for several years)
 
#2 ANY motogp bike. Watch every chicane shot in slow mo, and you see that they fully transition side to side without the front wheel ever touching the ground in every chicane.
 
A few things here -
 
The motorcycle completes it's turn with the back wheel, but the turn is not initiated with the back wheel. It's initiated with a combination of the brakes and counter steering.
 
To clear up a few things
 
#1 Brakes have ZERO effect on turning the bike. EVER. If your brakes make you turn, you need to find a better mechanic than your current riding coach.
#2 Where you CAN initiate a turn with the bars, you dont need to, and if you are trying to be SMOOTH or FAST, you shouldn't. Period. You only upset the chassis, which is the OPPOSITE of what you are trying to do. You can also stop the bike with the rear brake, but once again, only if you dont really understand what you are doing with the rest of the systems.
#3 A bicycle is a PERFECT transfer to a motorcycle, 100%. Considering there are VERY few places where you are initiating a turn with the throttle screwed on, (which eliminates the front wheel regardless) a static bicycle has the exact same forces in application. I use the bicycle as the variance in cost and speed to crashing your personal bike tends to dissuade you from doing so.
#4 A gyro (your wheel) does not care what angle it is at, It will try to maintain its path. it does NOT ever try to " W preventing the motorcycle from completely stabilizing on its own and returning to vertical. " A motorcycle does not care what angle it is at, regardless, ever. Unless there is a force being applied trying to bend it in half and sacrificing traction, like applying pressure to the bars.
#5 At the upper level of racing there is NEVER EVER pressure on the bars, EVER. When you look at ANY picture of #93, 46, 26, 69, etc etc you can see that the fingers are OPEN , expect on the brakes when they are trying to hold themselves up.
 
I can recommend a book - SMOOTH RIDING THE PRIDMORE WAY - http://www.amazon.com/Smooth-Riding-Pridmore-Way-Reg/dp/1884313469/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427135318&sr=1-1&keywords=smooth+riding+the+pridmore+way
 
Maybe take a few lessons from a guy who has actually won a race or two, not to mention a few championships. www.classrides.com
 
Good luck guys

[ULEWZ]

I turns da bike, da bike turns. (rofl)