Suspension Woes

[kimmie]

Hi this is Kim’s other half Karl. I ride a 2014 Super Tenere ES but this is about the tracer primarily.
 
History, her Tracer is 2015 model with 10,000km on it now and OEM tyres. Kim is a very experienced rider having put 170000km on her last bike (Honda blackbird). I would primarily describe her riding as spirited touring, she does not need race standard suspension, just fixing what she has now). Her main problem with bikes has been her footing during parking etc so she has lowered all her bikes. The tracer is lowered in the rear with the factory dogbones and the front has been dropped through the triple 20mm. Kim never rides two up but has a, tank bag, seat bag, GPS, Spot tracker, Crash bars and LED driving lights all the time and any combination of panniers and or top box when she is touring (depending on the length of the trip).
 
She describes her problem with the tracer as front end instability during moderate to spirited cornering. She has described it a skipping through the corners. To my mind that is over damped but she finds it hard to describe her problems. As I am twice her weight, I have not attempted to replicate the problem, I am likely to cause different issues. Kims weight is about 60-65kg (130-140lbs). Altho she sometimes loads the bike up with up to another 20-30kg (65lb), primarily on the back end.
 
We have attempted to set the rider sag with no luck on the front, because of the progressive springs no doubt.
 
I am experienced in modifying other bikes suspension front and rear, mainly for my 110kg weight (245lb). I also know a fair bit about it, as I am a mechanical engineer. I have resprung countless front ends and stripped and modified rear shocks.
 
The first thing I recommended to her (appart from bringing the bike back to stock height), was set the sag by putting a linear spring in the front for her weight and upping the rear preload when she puts the luggage on. Racetech recommends a 0.85kg/mm linear spring upgrade and 5w oil with a 130mm air gap, they also have a gold valve kit. I tend towards choosing the 0.80kg/mm spring as I have always found racetech to be a little firm for the type of riding we do.
 
So here is the kicker, she/we have virtually no money for cartridges or new shocks, although we have eventually done shock upgrades before (usually with used units). A set of cartridges and a good aftermarket shock landed here in Australia is prohibitively expensive.
 
Questions:
Is this primarily a front end problem or is the rear shock really bad?
General experiences with the basic fork upgrade (racetech route).
What is the stock oil weight and air-gap? Is it different from the racetech recommendation? Will changing those two parameters make a decent difference?
Would you go the 0.80 or 0.85 spring? Is the racetech recommendation for this bike spot on, or a bit stiff, as per my experiences.
Is the racetech gold valve kit worth it?
 
Sorry for the long winded post and the number of questions. I have done some research but most of the info has been for the naked MT-09 (FZ) and most of the stuff on here involves the expensive route.
 
Thanks all for any advice you can give.
 
Regards, the other K

[wessie]

As the tyres are 10,000 km old I would start with new tyres. They must be shagged by now and maybe a different brand will change the the variables in a good way. Make sure the wheels are aligned - don't trust the marks on the swingarm, check the alignment with 2 planks - I'm sure there must be a Youtube video.
 
After that, I am no expert and I have not experienced any higher speed problems with the OE Dunlops, a rear Roadsmart 2 or now, Avon Storm 2 tyres. However, I'm 200lb so maybe that's enough to preload the suspension so it does not misbehave. I had the bike well over 100mph on several occasions over the weekend and no sign if any instability.

[ULEWZ]

Hi this is Kim’s other half Karl. I ride a 2014 Super Tenere ES but this is about the tracer primarily. 
 
History, her Tracer is 2015 model with 10,000km on it now and OEM tyres. Kim is a very experienced rider having put 170000km on her last bike (Honda blackbird). I would primarily describe her riding as spirited touring, she does not need race standard suspension, just fixing what she has now). Her main problem with bikes has been her footing during parking etc so she has lowered all her bikes. The tracer is lowered in the rear with the factory dogbones and the front has been dropped through the triple 20mm. Kim never rides two up but has a, tank bag, seat bag, GPS, Spot tracker, Crash bars and LED driving lights all the time and any combination of panniers and or top box when she is touring (depending on the length of the trip).
 
 
She describes her problem with the tracer as front end instability during moderate to spirited cornering. She has described it a skipping through the corners. To my mind that is over damped but she finds it hard to describe her problems. As I am twice her weight, I have not attempted to replicate the problem, I am likely to cause different issues.
 Kims weight is about 60-65kg (130-140lbs). Altho she sometimes loads the bike up with up to another 20-30kg (65lb), primarily on the back end.
 
 
We have attempted to set the rider sag with no luck on the front, because of the progressive springs no doubt.
 
 
I am experienced in modifying other bikes suspension front and rear, mainly for my 110kg weight (245lb). I also know a fair bit about it, as I am a mechanical engineer. I have resprung countless front ends and stripped and modified rear shocks.
 
 
The first thing I recommended to her (appart from bringing the bike back to stock height), was set the sag by putting a linear spring in the front for her weight and upping the rear preload when she puts the luggage on. Racetech recommends a 0.85kg/mm linear spring upgrade and 5w oil with a 130mm air gap, they also have a gold valve kit. I tend towards choosing the 0.80kg/mm spring as I have always found racetech to be a little firm for the type of riding we do.
 
 
So here is the kicker, she/we have virtually no money for cartridges or new shocks, although we have eventually done shock upgrades before (usually with used units). A set of cartridges and a good aftermarket shock landed here in Australia is prohibitively expensive.
 
 
Questions:
 
Is this primarily a front end problem or is the rear shock really bad?
 
General experiences with the basic fork upgrade (racetech route).
 
What is the stock oil weight and air-gap? Is it different from the racetech recommendation? Will changing those two parameters make a decent difference?
 
Would you go the 0.80 or 0.85 spring? Is the racetech recommendation for this bike spot on, or a bit stiff, as per my experiences.
 
Is the racetech gold valve kit worth it?
 
 
 
Sorry for the long winded post and the number of questions. I have done some research but most of the info has been for the naked MT-09 (FZ) and most of the stuff on here involves the expensive route.
 
 
Thanks all for any advice you can give.
 
 
Regards, the other K

If she rides aggressive, I would go the 0.85kg route. If she does normal type riding, I would go with the 0.8kg springs. Straight rate springs I might add. I am not a fan of progressive springs (My opinion only, ymmv). Just a note here, I added the Andreani fork cartridges with their stock springs, and find the handling pretty good. I am 180lbs and people as heavy as 270lbs have ridden my bike and raved about the suspension. For some reason, I think this bike likes to be lightly sprung. Maybe go the 0.80kg route with an air gap of  125mm using a lightweight fork oil, 3 to 5 wt.  

[kimmie]

Thanks guys, yeah, I was only thinking of linear rate springs for the upgrade.
 
oh and the tyres could certainly be an issue but are in very good nick still, (probably due to her weight and smooth riding).

[johan]

Karl/Kim
 
The guy that did my upgrade seemed to know what he's doing and he seemed to think that the shock was more of a problem than the forks. If you think of it, everyone that has problems seem to experience it under hard acceleration. I know you're looking at not spending that much money, but I wonder if forks alone would achieve what you want. Dropping the front 20mm sounds a lot I have to say, although if the rear was lowered it may be necessary.
 
I tried to change three things; the seat, screen and suspension. The suspension made the biggest difference and as it cost by far the most I am especially pleased. I installed Andreani cartridges and a Nitron R2 shock.

[kimmie]

Yeah, initially I had dropped the front 10mm, at the moment it is 20mm, but that was more of an experiment trying to see if the lowering dogbones, dropping it 20-30mm in the rear had not badly effected the stearing responsiveness due to making the fork angle less steep. The change from 10 to 20mm has not seemed to change anything for her.
 
I certainly wish she could afford to go all out on uogrades and I am not working at the moment so can not help much.

[kimmie]

So has no one used the racetech upgrade route?

[bobaintstoppin]

I have received the fork rework kit from RaceTech.  Got 0.95 springs and the gold valves rig.  On receipt, you are supposed to log into the web site to get the proper shim stack for the valving.  I did that but my sheet wasn't filled in.  After a couple phone calls and emails I now have the info that should allow me to do the install.  Will be doing this in the next couple of weeks and report to the group at that time.  Hooping for improved compression performance and reduced brake dive.

[kimmie]

Thanks for that. It seems odd to me that the majority here are going for cartridges. When we had the blackbirds, less than 5% went for cartridges. probably much less than the number of people who did a full front end swap (which I did).
 
K

[redfjniner]

My biggest gripe with the OEM suspension was the harshness at both ends. I ended up backing off the preload and the damping. Not all the way south, but enough to notice a difference. I weigh between 160-165lbs. Your discription of how your wife rides sound like me. On the aggressive side of Touring. It was much better all around after making the changes. When touring with FJR bags and a tail pack, I will increase the Preload to Stock settings and with the extra weight it seams to work for me. So far I have left the damping a couple clicks soft.

[parablob]

Hi
I had the same experience as your wife and can't afford replacing the suspension, I thought that the yamaha lowering OEM dog bones had fitted when i had the bike new only dropped the back by 15mm and tried different amounts on the front but settled for 17mm what I did find mainly was the type of profile of the front tyre
As the OEM Dunlop where more rounded I found with the way I went around a corner the way I was leaning over the front and the stiffer suspension setting I had due to the extra weight caused the front to skip and feel as if I was going to lose the front and constantly changing my steering input not good , I found that for me the more of an apex shaped tyre such as dunlop sports max made a massive improvement over stock tyre's and then I improved the feeling for by backing off preloaded both ends leaving rebound standard, even with a back box,panniers but never two up
The stock suspension is not the best and I find that when I am not carrying any weight no panniers or top box then backing all the setting to soft seams to have the best response. for me the tyre profile had more of a impact.
Hope this helps

[kimmie]

Thanks for the insights guys. We are heading away tomorrow for a week of riding, hopefully after that we can dump the tyres and try an alternative. I might back off all the damping and see how she goes with that.
 
 

[clint]

My biggest gripe with the OEM suspension was the harshness at both ends. I ended up backing off the preload and the damping. Not all the way south, but enough to notice a difference. I weigh between 160-165lbs. Your discription of how your wife rides sound like me. On the aggressive side of Touring. It was much better all around after making the changes. When touring with FJR bags and a tail pack, I will increase the Preload to Stock settings and with the extra weight it seams to work for me. So far I have left the damping a couple clicks soft.

This is exactly how I adjusted my suspension and it works fine for me at 175lbs. Not perfect mind you, but for touring it's wonderful. Even works well carving up the NC/VA/WV backroads. The harshness is gone, but rider weight and luggage load all play a part, so other's experience may differ.

[ericm]

I'm 145 lbs, 170 with gear. I have the preload set fairly low both ends- a couple lines on the front and position two on the rear. I tried with less preload but was bottoming on dips. I've tried reducing the rebound. That doesn't help the harshness on sharp edge bumps but does let the bike wallow in turns. Adding rebound reduces the wallowing but makes the ride even rougher.
 
I think I've gotten the stock suspension as good as it's going to get and it's not good enough. So I sent my forks to Matt and ordered a shock.
 
It would be cheaper to get the fork revalved locally and either have the shock revalved or use a ZX shock, revalved and re-springed.

[kimmie]

Thanks guys. I'll try softening the damping as you suggested Redfjniner and see how we go.