Front brake free play

[stevesweetz]

So I woke up my Fudge9 from winter hibernation a couple weekends ago and I've found that front brake lever has a decent amount of free play before I get any braking.
 
Once I do get braking, it feels pretty normal - decently linear and strong enough to kick in the ABS if I grip hard.  To be honest, I can't recall if the free play was always like this, or I'm just noticing it now due to having ridden the bike in months.
 
I know air in the lines is the obvious answer - but how would that have been introduced while sitting over the winter?  Bike is 1 year old, has 6000 miles on it.  Haven't touched the brake fluid since buying it.
 
 
 
While on the subject, I prefer to "reverse bleed" brakes (squirt in fluid with a syringe from the caliper end so air bubbles are pushed up to the reservoir), has anyone else who does this found it particularly difficult in the FJ, is there a lot of resistance with its brake lines?

[duhs10]

...While on the subject, I prefer to "reverse bleed" brakes (squirt in fluid with a syringe from the caliper end so air bubbles are pushed up to the reservoir), has anyone else who does this found it particularly difficult in the FJ, is there a lot of resistance with its brake lines?

I am interested to hear more about this procedure for bleeding brakes..

[stevesweetz]

...While on the subject, I prefer to "reverse bleed" brakes (squirt in fluid with a syringe from the caliper end so air bubbles are pushed up to the reservoir), has anyone else who does this found it particularly difficult in the FJ, is there a lot of resistance with its brake lines?

I am interested to hear more about this procedure for bleeding brakes..

Lots of YouTube videos on the subject.  Basically you fill the brake lines by forcing the fluid in from the bleeder valve instead of constantly building up pressure and opening/closing the valve. Works with the fact that air bubbles naturally go up. 
-Open reservoir, sop up old fluid with shop towels or whatever.
-Fill up a good size syringe with brake fluid, connect tubing to end, get air out of syringe/tubing like a doctor would.
-Connect tubing to bleeder value.
-Open valve, start squeezing syringe.
-Air bubbles go up the line, come up in the reservoir along with old fluid.  
-Keep sopping up old fluid coming up in reservoir until you see only fresh fluid coming out (color change should be obvious).
-You shouldn't be seeing any more air bubbles coming up in the reservoir once only fresh fluid is coming out.
-At that point you can close off bleeder valve and fill the rest of the reservoir from the top.
 
 
Only difficulty is that I found depending on how long the brake lines are, it can take a good amount of effort to squeeze in the fresh fluid through the bleeder value.  I was using a cheap syringe the first time I tried this and the seals on the syringe plunger gave way and spilled brake fluid all over my hand.
 
 

[carey]

I am interested to hear more about this procedure for bleeding brakes..

Lots of YouTube videos on the subject.  Basically you fill the brake lines by forcing the fluid in from the bleeder valve instead of constantly building up pressure and opening/closing the valve. Works with the fact that air bubbles naturally go up. 
-Open reservoir, sop up old fluid with shop towels or whatever.
-Fill up a good size syringe with brake fluid, connect tubing to end, get air out of syringe/tubing like a doctor would.
-Connect tubing to bleeder value.
-Open valve, start squeezing syringe.
-Air bubbles go up the line, come up in the reservoir along with old fluid.  
-Keep sopping up old fluid coming up in reservoir until you see only fresh fluid coming out (color change should be obvious).
-You shouldn't be seeing any more air bubbles coming up in the reservoir once only fresh fluid is coming out.
-At that point you can close off bleeder valve and fill the rest of the reservoir from the top.
 
 
Only difficulty is that I found depending on how long the brake lines are, it can take a good amount of effort to squeeze in the fresh fluid through the bleeder value.  I was using a cheap syringe the first time I tried this and the seals on the syringe plunger gave way and spilled brake fluid all over my hand.
 

I tried this method with my FJ 09 and it made a mess.  I had brake fluid shoot out the small hole in the master cylinder and hit the ceiling in my garage.  I had the master cylinder empty and only pushed in a few ml of brake fluid. I did have success bleeding my brakes through the calipers, with a Mity Vac.  I had a friend help.  He would keep adding fresh fluid to the MC, while I kept vacuum on the bleed screw.
 

[docsimple]

i tried the mity vac and it was till not enough for after I completely drained the system to change the break lines. I highly recommend this:
 
http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/brakes/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html
 
or some variation on that and a half gallon of brake fluid to pull through to get all the bubbles out, if you are doing a full drain.

[carey]

i tried the mity vac and it was till not enough for after I completely drained the system to change the break lines. I highly recommend this: 
http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/brakes/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html
 
or some variation on that and a half gallon of brake fluid to pull through to get all the bubbles out, if you are doing a full drain.

I was able to get my bike bled after replacing the lines with a Mity Vac, but it was definitely easier with two people. The tool you linked looks like a one person operation.  The price seems reasonable, and a person can never have enough tools. 

[stevesweetz]

i tried the mity vac and it was till not enough for after I completely drained the system to change the break lines. I highly recommend this: 
http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/brakes/brake-fluid-bleeder-92924.html
 
or some variation on that and a half gallon of brake fluid to pull through to get all the bubbles out, if you are doing a full drain.

I went to my local Harbor Freight and checked that kit out - but it requires an air compressor and I don't have one. 
They did also have MityVacs, so I ended up getting one of those.  Looks like it's a little less troublesome than the reverse bleed.

[stevesweetz]

Well, this was a minor nightmare.
 
I bled the right caliper first (right with respect to if you were sitting on the bike). No problems there.
 
I got the left side, I can't even get vacuum with the bleeder screw closed. No fluid coming out, just air is somehow getting into the valve (and I know my MityVac setup was air tight because I could get a tight vacuum on my finger). I try tightening the bleeder screw as much as I dare - still leaky.
 
So I drain the whole damn system so I can inspect the bleeder screws. Right side screw is longer, has a rubber seal. Left side is just a metal screw, no rubber seal. So air is clearly getting in around the threads where it screws into the caliper. Thought I somehow got the wrong screw, but the bleeder screw holes in the left and right caliper are different - so by design Yamaha just put a really shitty bleeder screw on the left side caliper for some reason. This basically makes is impossible to tell if there's air in the line or it's just coming in at the bleeder.
 
For lack of anything better I put some blue thread locker on the left bleeder and was finally able to get a vacuum seal as a result.
 
So after like 2 hours of messing around I finally get the system all bled and refreshed...and my brake "freeplay" is exactly the same. Once I do get braking, it is noticeably firmer, but the lever still goes farther than I'd like before I start to get any real braking. Guess it's just always been this way and I didn't take notice last year.

[docsimple]

it was a real pita when i did it too!

[2and3cylinders]

The left bleeder can be removed without draining the entire system and minimal leakage so it can be warped with Teflon tape; preferably the yellow for gas versus white for water. I regularly (every 4 months) need to bleed my front brake system due to it sucking air. I've carefully checked for air leaks and never have discovered any source; I think its due to the ABS system and will go all the back to the pressure module next I have access for another reason.
 
See these threads...
 
https://fj-09.org/thread/5004/flush-fj-tracer-brake-fluid
 
https://fj-09.org/thread/4496/replacement-front-brake-master-cylinder
 
https://fj-09.org/thread/3632/replacement-brake-lines-braided-stainless

[koth442]

Did you bleed your master cylinder? Is your lever adjusted properly (if you don't have stock levers?)

[stevesweetz]

Did you bleed your master cylinder?

I couldn't find a bleeder screw on the master cylinder, perhaps I missed it, but otherwise how would I do that? 
Also, I still have stock levers.

[estell]

I bled the right caliper first (right with respect to if you were sitting on the bike). No problems there. 
I got the left side, I can't even get vacuum with the bleeder screw closed. No fluid coming out, just air is somehow getting into the valve (and I know my MityVac setup was air tight because I could get a tight vacuum on my finger). I try tightening the bleeder screw as much as I dare - still leaky.

I had the same experience while flushing the brake fluid. The right caliper was easy because the vacuum pump would pull fluid out of the bleeder screw. The left bleeder just passed air bubbles and I had to go back to the regular squeeze lever...release bleeder method. 

So I drain the whole damn system so I can inspect the bleeder screws. Right side screw is longer, has a rubber seal. Left side is just a metal screw, no rubber seal.

Do you think that I can get a right-side bleeder screw and install it in the left side? Would it fit? 
 

[stevesweetz]

>Do you think that I can get a right-side bleeder screw and install it in the left side? Would it fit?
 
 
Nope. The right side screw and correspondingly the hole it goes in is much longer. The little rubber gasket would be sticking way above the actual screw hole on the left side.
 
Proper thread sealant would be the best thing to seal the left screw. In my case I just used some blue (removable) thread locker because it's what I had on hand. Despite being pretty thin when wet, it still had enough surface tension to create a seal good enough to get a vacuum.

[betoney]

Did you bleed your master cylinder?

I couldn't find a bleeder screw on the master cylinder, perhaps I missed it, but otherwise how would I do that? 
Also, I still have stock levers.

The stock master cylinder DOES NOT have a bleed screw, I bought an R1 Master Cylinder which DOES have a bleed screw.   Since air bubbles travel up, and the master cylinder is the highest point of the system, it makes brake bleeding really easy.  One finger braking is a definite plus.   BTW, I use Pazzo adjustable levers.