Low compression after 25.000 miles

[sancheezy]

I have a 2015 FJ09 with approximately 24,000 miles,  At 23,000 miles I had a drop in gas mileage (went from 49 mpg to 42 mpg).  I decided that it was time for a set of plugs, valve adjustment, air filter cleaning, and new oil (I change every 2,000 miles).  I cleaned filter and noticed excessive moisture.  I  went ahead and cleaned-up filter excess moisture.  Yamaha dealer went ahead and adjusted valves and put new plugs in ($800 later).  They also ended up replacing cam chain tensioner since it started making noise after the valve adjustment.  When I got the bike back I noticed that the mpg didn't improve (remained at 42 mpg).  I also noticed that the bike was beginning to let out white smoke upon start-up that would eventually quite after a minute or two.  I also noticed that the white smoke had a blue hue to it (signs of burning oil). I decided that something wasn't right!  The white/blue smoke along with the drop in fuel mileage, along with moisture should needs to be addressed.
 
I took the bike back to Yamaha dealer and asked them to access what the problem might be? They started the bike up and then recommended I take just take home and keep riding it as is.  I told them that the issues needed to fixed since I have a 4 year Yamaha yes warranty.  Thus they called yamaha up and asked what needed to done.  Yamaha recommended a leak-down/compression test determine what may be wrong.  Dealership and Yamaha corporate told me that I was responsible for the cost ($250) of test if nothing was found.  I agreed.  The test showed 165-170 psi in all cylinders (dealership tech said this is outside recommeded operating pressures and should be covered under the warranty).   Dealership submitted paper work to complete ring replacement to Yamaha corporate.  Yamaha corporate denied approval since they haven't identified any manufacturers defects.
 
At this point I am pretty upset because I have a bike that I paid over $10,000 for.  I changed the oil every 2,000 miles, cleaned the filter ever 6,000 to 7,000 miles, had dealership do throttle body synch and valve adjustment per the manual and they pay for any repairs to correct low compression until a manufacturers defect is found.  My rocommendation to any readers of this post is to not buy the Yamaha extended warranty.  Unfortunately any repairs that are not part of a hard and fast recall will end being paid for by the owner.
 
Unfortunately, Yamaha is recommending a further tear down of the engine seeking to find what the problem is (dealership wants another $500 for further tear down which I have to pay if nothing is found).  I don't understand why Yamaha won't own up to the possibility of bad rings and make right with a product they want to continue to sell.
 
At this point I don't recommend this motor for longevity.  I have since learned that in order to replace the piston rings you have to split the engine in half.  The cylinders are part of the engine case (top part of the block has to be pulled).  I would also recommend that for those who own this bike with any smoking issues to do a compression test.  I was supprised at how decent the bike ran at an under spec compression.  Good Luck.  My hope is that Yamaha stands behind their product for others that are in my position.
 
 
 
 

[pattonme]

I don't run a dealership but this seems like bad customer service. True nobody works for free but if they've taken a not insignificant amount of your money and expect you to keep coming back, then some of this diagnostic work should be on the house.
 
Did you get an actual leak-down or a 5 minute compression test? You want a proper leak-down test done. Burning oil is probably worn valve guides and not rings. White smoke is probably coolant so a head cover gasket or water pump seal/ is up to no good. It doesn't sound like your Yam dealer is a competent trouble-shooter (are they ever?). I realize you shouldn't have to be out money when the bike is under extended warranty but it might be worth taking to a known GOOD independent shop/engine specialist and have them do a diagnostic.
 
Can you describe what you mean by "excessive moisture" in the air-filter element and where you live and what ambient temps are this time of year?
 
Were any mods done that involved loosening/removing of side covers and bolts?
 
I don't have a shop manual handy - what's the expected PSI?
 
It also doesn't make sense for Yam HQ via the dealership to hit you with the engine tear-down. If they can't help the dealer tech to suss out what's wrong from a demonstrably sub-spec compression test without something so intensive, then the onus is on Yam HQ to finance the work and tough sh&t if they can't find the problem. HQ either sends you a new engine and thanks you for your patronage or they stump to make whatever repairs are necessary till it's back to spec.
 
If you have a lawyer handy, have them review the terms of the YES warranty and give Yam warranty a friendly call. And if Yam wants to stick to the "just go away and ride it the way it is" get that in writing on company (or dealer letterhead) and signed. Then ride the piss out of it and hope the engine lets go (in a non dangerous) manner before the term is up. Then they owe you an entire engine.
 

[sancheezy]

It was a leak-down.  I don't know %.  Dealer tech said it was enough to rule-out valves.  As for head gasket, I am not noticing any coolant in oil or oil in coolant, just some moisture spots in air box.  I also notice white moisture stains in the tube coming up into air box.
 
There are no mods to bike (aside from K&N air filter).  I am thinking recommended psi is 190 to 240 psi range.  I will look further into lawyer side of things.  Thanks for advice.

[Buggy Nate]

It was a leak-down.  I don't know %.  Dealer tech said it was enough to rule-out valves.  As for head gasket, I am not noticing any coolant in oil or oil in coolant, just some moisture spots in air box.  I also notice white moisture stains in the tube coming up into air box. 
There are no mods to bike (aside from K&N air filter).  I am thinking recommended psi is 190 to 240 psi range.  I will look further into lawyer side of things.  Thanks for advice.

 
A leak down will tell you where you are loosing compression through. If they can’t find out from that then go somewhere else as you don’t want those monkeys that deep into your motor. Also how hard do you ride it? I had quite a few city bikes of all brands with gummed up and carboned rings which would give little to no compression. I had a cbr600rr come in with none and it came good with some oil down the bore whilst doing a wet compression test. Back up to 210 psi per cylinder. Some competent diagnosis is required I’m afraid.

[pattonme]

if your ambient temps cross the dew point it's not uncommon for water to collect in the exhaust headers and you get 'white' exhaust until it's burnt off. If it is coolant though it should smell pretty fierce and be definitely smoke and not whispy.
 
Get a couple sheets of white printer paper and have someone hold it about 4 inches off the tail pipe when you start up the bike for the first time. Keep holding it there for a few minutes or till the 'smoke' is disappearing. Use a stop-watch, how long does that take? if it smells/feels oily you're right about the oil. If it smells nasty, you've got a coolant leak. If it's just wet, you simply have condensate.
 
What oil are you using? And why the 2000 mile interval? For someone who seems to ride a fair bit that's a bit odd. When was your last oil change relative to the 23,000 mile mark?

[redfjniner]

I have a 2015 FJ09 with approximately 24,000 miles,  At 23,000 miles I had a drop in gas mileage (went from 49 mpg to 42 mpg).  I decided that it was time for a set of plugs, valve adjustment, air filter cleaning, and new oil (I change every 2,000 miles).  I cleaned filter and noticed excessive moisture.  I  went ahead and cleaned-up filter excess moisture.  Yamaha dealer went ahead and adjusted valves and put new plugs in ($800 later).  They also ended up replacing cam chain tensioner since it started making noise after the valve adjustment.  When I got the bike back I noticed that the mpg didn't improve (remained at 42 mpg).  I also noticed that the bike was beginning to let out white smoke upon start-up that would eventually quite after a minute or two.  I also noticed that the white smoke had a blue hue to it (signs of burning oil). I decided that something wasn't right!  The white/blue smoke along with the drop in fuel mileage, along with moisture should needs to be addressed................................... 
....................At this point I don't recommend this motor for longevity.  I have since learned that in order to replace the piston rings you have to split the engine in half.  The cylinders are part of the engine case (top part of the block has to be pulled).  I would also recommend that for those who own this bike with any smoking issues to do a compression test.  I was supprised at how decent the bike ran at an under spec compression.  Good Luck.  My hope is that Yamaha stands behind their product for others that are in my position.
 
 
 

You haven't told us how you ride the bike.  If you don't rev the engine and short shift, ride a constant speed since new, etc.  I would say your issue is of your own making.  So lets assume you have been riding the bike perfectly.  I rev the engine to max all the time.  I will even ride the bike at 7,000-9,000 rpm for extended periods of time.  Usually because I forgot to shift up, and I don't notice the rpm's or the vibration.  My bike has 52,000 miles on it and is running fine, and if you follow the post here at FJ-09.Org, you will have seen someone else posting they have gone over 100,000 miles with no problems.  My mechanic asked me to use [/url][a href=https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-Yamalube-Ring-Additive-ACC-RNGFR-PL-12/dp/B002GU4SN2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1519878207&sr=8-3&keywords=ring+free+yamaha&dpID=31hOHSaWNCL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch]Yamalube Ring Free fuel additive[/a].  before I brought it in for the next valve adjust after my first 26K adjust.  I was a bit low on one cylinder.  I put some in my fuel following that and took a 2 week ride.  It made a positive change in performance and decreased the MPG.  Yes, it did, but shortly after that ride the MPG returned to normal.  So I put it in my Oldsmobile Aurora and it made my gas mileage go down as it did on the FJ and also had a positive effect on the engine (seat of the pants) performance.   My gas mileage is back to normal on the car too.   If you have built up carbon in you rings and valves, it will not show up in a valve adjust or TBS, but will do all the things you are talking about.   
I  would run the Ring Free stuff through your engine.  Try to do it in a couple or three days.  Make sure you are running the engine on the hot side by staying in lower gears and high rpm (+4,000 rpm).  Shift at 5-7,000 min.  If one tank of gas with the additive doesn't improve your performance, do it again.  This stuff is amazing.  And if it works, certainly a lot cheaper.  Won't hurt.

[skipperT]

Ok, I have quite a bit to add here but it’s late and I will need to update in the morning.
 
1- 165-170 isn’t a horrible compression number depending on whether they propped the throttle bodies open while cranking or not - remember this is a YCCT engine. Also altitude affects compression readings. Where are you at?
 
2- leak down tells all. You need that info. Compression numbers should be taken with a grain of salt as they really don’t indicate engine health.
 
3- I’m going to immediately suspect cam timing. If they just adjusted the valves someone should double check that the motor is timed correctly. It’s easy to jump a tooth on this engine, and I don’t know whether it will run out of time without bending a valve - but some motors will.
 
4-Ring free IS amazing stuff. Believe Redfj09er.
 
Till tomorrow.
 
-Skip

[sancheezy]

I ride the bike on a 25 mile commute one way (50 miles daily).  8 of the 25 miles is twisty in which I get the revs up 11-12 intermittently.  The other 17 miles is freeway 4-6 rpm).
 
I will try the Yamaha ring-free (I assuming in the tank) when I get the bike back.  I used to use Kawasaki version of this since the shop I frequented sold it, but haven't used it in 15,000 or so miles.
 
I am thinking it is not valves since the drop in mileage came before the valve adjustment and the Yamaha dealer tech ruled this out based on leak-down test results (which I don't have yet).  I am assuming he did compression test with throttle bodies fully open (but didn't ask question).  Once I get full on results I will share.
 
I am leaning towards picking the bike up as is (not diving into it anymore) until I decide what's best without having Yamaha and the dealer drain me of funds.  Getting another opinion is an option but ever time I take it to some one its at least $90 per hour (no one works for free).

[sancheezy]

Sorry! Forgot the question related to oil changes.  I change oil every 2,000 miles and I use amsoil metric (synthetic).  The last oil change was at 22,000 miles.  It scheduled to be changed when I get the bike back from dealer.  I change filter every 2nd oil change.

[pattonme]

geographic location and altitude? If you're running full-syn then 4-5K miles between changes is perfectly reasonable unless your air is very dirty but that doesn't sound like it's the case.

[norcal616]

I wonder if the smoke is from overfilling the bike with oil changes every 2k miles... I have had 2 differ dealerships put 3.5qt of oil in my FZ-07 and it barely takes 2.75ish qts of oil even with the filter getting changed...
 
Also if you live in an area with summer and winter blends of gas you will notice reduced mpg with winter blend gas...

[skipperT]

Norcal had a good point - overfilling these engines will create some smoke/greater crankcase breather carry-over as well.
 
Sanch- Important question: Aside from your observations about possible smoke from the exhaust and the moisture in the airbox, how does it run?  Is the drop in gas mileage really your only complaint at this time?
 
Thanks for the update. As others have pointed out, some white nasty stuff or oil moisture carry-over in the breather system of this, or any bike, is normal.  Also if you are using a K&N air filter some of that oil inevitably will get in there as well. The stock air filter also has a light coating of oil impregnated in the pleats, thus - why you should NEVER clean out one of the stock air filters with compressed air.
 
Back to the test results: Carbon build-up is possible to conclude from lower compression readings: I have seen inline 4 sport bikes (Suzukis, usually) come in with 175/165/!!!90!!!/125 types of compression readings due to carbon build up.  Ring Free is MAGICAL, one of the best de-carbon treatments on the market.  I do not have direct experience with any of the BG products from the automotive side, so I can't comment on that.  When an engine gets that bad, as in the example I gave above - using another Yamaha product called Combustion Chamber Cleaner will bring those compression numbers back up immediately and then following a ring-free treatment will get that engine to running quite well.
 
If you choose the Ring free route, use up to 1oz per gallon as a "Shock treatment" and then be prepared to immediately change the oil and filter afterwords.  The shock treatment of ring free dumps the carbon thats removed into the crankcase oil.  If your going to run a couple tanks with the Shock treatment, I would switch to conventional oil for one cycle as your going to drop it back out of the engine in ~250 miles of riding.
 
This will improve gas mileage. If the numbers DON'T improve, I'd suspect a lazy O2 sensor.  
The only other thing to remember is that your part of the world may switch to a "winter" blend of gas which is more oxygenated then "summer" fuel.
I know on my bike, when it's cold out and "winter" fuel is in play - that I EASILY lose 5-7 MPG.  BTW, I'm around the similar miles as you - 26k + miles and counting.
 
(More coming,)
 
-Skip
 
 
 
 
 

[betoney]

@skipperT - Thanks for the informative post. That is some useful info to keep stored away for future use.

[sancheezy]

I live in the North west.  I am at 1,000 ft.  Bike spends most of it time comuting at sea level.
 
What has got me concerned is the excessive white smoke with a slight blue to it, low compression readings.  Drop in gas mileage.  Possible excess moisture in air box.
 
I don't normally overfill the engine with oil (takes 2.8 quarts).  I did overfill it once and learned real quick that is not good (made a mess in air box).
 
I appreciate everyone's feedback.  Once I get bike back I will try Yamaha ring free.

[sancheezy]

Just got the bike back today.  Compression readings were 175, 173, and 160 psi.  Leak down was 3% at 100 psi on all cylinders.  Yamaha recommended dealer shock the fuel with ring-free plus.  So far 1/2 tank has been run through it with additive.  Dealer says bike will continue to smoke as additive is run through bike.  I haven't checked exhaust with towel yet.  Will do that in next couple days.  If I pull tank i will check air box for moisture and take photos.  Thanks again for help.