Suspension Upgrade, Will I Notice?

[kilo3]

I'm fixing to drop some proper coinage on a full ohlins setup front and rear. However I have my reservations and frankly looking for validation. As it stands now, my 2020 is ok, I really haven't noticed any limitations besides preload (280lbs) full kit. Sure it gets bouncy in the rear sometimes, but besides that I really can't complain. 

Remember this is my first "street" bike so keep that in mind and only been on the bike for two years. Maybe I don't push the bike enough? I am hitting peg feelers on some corners habitually, but maybe that's due to rider weight?

2.5k isn't walking around money, but I really don't want to spend money on suspension more than once. Knowing there's more, as I progress in riding would probably piss me off.

My plan is to order everything his winter, upgrade the rear this summer, then tackle the forks when I do my valves next winter.

No desire to upgrade the bike itself for many years.

Long story short, would I be satisfied with a half ass approach of a new budget rear shock/valve kit up front with appropriate springs all around. Say for about half the price? Think I would outgrow the setup?

[betoney]

I am a huge advocate of quality suspension and it would be very easy for me to respond with "Yes, spend the money, you'll love it" but you realistically might not 'need' a full Ohlins upgrade.

I guess you have to ask yourself a few questions, have you ridden a bike with upgraded suspension to feel the difference?  Besides getting the correct spring rate for your weight, what are you looking to achieve with the upgrade?  Aggressive twisties? track days? touring comfort? riding with a passenger or extra luggage?

For me personally, I would not compromise or look at a budget option for the shock, you don't need a track ready triple clicker but having fully adjustable compression and rebound damping as well as ride height adjustment makes a HUGE difference in tuning options for comfort or compliance.

For the forks you DO NOT need fully built drop-in cartridges, you can get an amazing ride quality upgrade with a re-valve and springs, ie Race Tech Gold Valves, Traxxion Dynamics Axxion valves or K-Tech Piston Kit. 

 

[1moreroad]

12 hours ago, kilo3 said:

Long story short, would I be satisfied with a half ass approach of a new budget rear shock/valve kit up front with appropriate springs all around. Say for about half the price? Think I would outgrow the setup?

I've upgraded 2 suspensions, an 01 Ninja 600 with 3+ clicker Ohlins rear and Racetech spring/valves and the FJ with K-tech Razor (not R) and just springs. Spending more money will get you a smoother ride EVERYWHERE - better on the brakes, better in corners with pavement roughness, easier to hold a line on the track, and more comfortable on long days.

The "budget" upgrade on the FJ fixed the braking issue (mostly the springs) and helped hold a line cornering on rougher pavement but didn't make the bike more comfortable. 

After maybe 4 years, the "full" upgrade started showing other issues in the bike (exhaust dragged before pegs) and the rider (ability and lack of flexibility).

If you've got the budget and plan to hold on to the bike, go for the better suspension. The difference is noticeable. On the FJ, I'm satisfied with my upgrades in my budget, but I know what I'm missing. 

[kilo3]

11 hours ago, betoney said:

I guess you have to ask yourself a few questions, have you ridden a bike with upgraded suspension to feel the difference?  Besides getting the correct spring rate for your weight, what are you looking to achieve with the upgrade?  Aggressive twisties? track days? touring comfort? riding with a passenger or extra luggage?

I have not. My only experience with a "good" suspension is on a dirt bike and that was more travel handling than anything..

Frankly I don't know what I'm looking to achieve because I don't know what's possible. With no baseline, I'm sort of lost.  Areas I want improved are bumps in corners and the bounce on larger bumps/beams/crossing an intersection.

Added comfort would be nice but I assume its like the money/time/quality trifecta? Performance at a cost to comfort type of deal?

8 minutes ago, 1moreroad said:

If you've got the budget and plan to hold on to the bike, go for the better suspension. The difference is noticeable. On the FJ, I'm satisfied with my upgrades in my budget, but I know what I'm missing. 

My initial goal was a full exhaust but I think I've talked myself into suspension instead but I have no experience with it.

Suspension is voodoo to me, much like an automatic transmission.
I have long searched the internets for a comparison video of oem vs aftermarket suspension features and come up empty.  Not just a stupid rider comparison, but actual, here's the internal parts, here's the difference and why.

[1moreroad]

10 minutes ago, kilo3 said:

have long searched the internets for a comparison video of oem vs aftermarket suspension features and come up empty.  Not just a stupid rider comparison, but actual, here's the internal parts, here's the difference and why

Here's how I understand it - spending more money on suspension gets you less stiction - suspension activates sooner - consistent operation under a variety of conditions, and more adjustment within the limits of the suspension to fine tune the ride.

Spending the minimum on an upgrade (like me on the FJ) gets you the right spring rates so the nominal condition (my weight, average road conditions, average road speeds) works well. 

[Larz]

Hmmm, if ya got the $$ go all in. If it's tight dollar wise I'd take Betoney's advice on getting quality rear shock and Gold valves with appropaite springs fer your weight up front. I went Ohlins in rear and Andreani carts up front, saved $500- happy in the twistys, not so much on the superslab🤣

(wait a minute ya got a GT, don't do Gold Valves, lose adjustment, maybe just springs,eh)

Edited December 28, 2021 by Larz

[betoney]

6 hours ago, kilo3 said:

I have not. My only experience with a "good" suspension is on a dirt bike and that was more travel handling than anything..

Frankly I don't know what I'm looking to achieve because I don't know what's possible. With no baseline, I'm sort of lost.  Areas I want improved are bumps in corners and the bounce on larger bumps/beams/crossing an intersection.

Added comfort would be nice but I assume its like the money/time/quality trifecta? Performance at a cost to comfort type of deal?

My initial goal was a full exhaust but I think I've talked myself into suspension instead but I have no experience with it.

Suspension is voodoo to me, much like an automatic transmission.
I have long searched the internets for a comparison video of oem vs aftermarket suspension features and come up empty.  Not just a stupid rider comparison, but actual, here's the internal parts, here's the difference and why.

You don’t necessarily need to give up cornering compliance for highway comfort. When you talk to a suspension technician they will ask you questions on how you will use the bike and they can set up the internal valving accordingly along with the correct spring rate. 
 

As far as not knowing what difference you would feel, imagine driving a Twisty mountain or Canyon road in a 60s Cadillac that wallows side to side every time you turn the steering wheel and then drive the exact same road in a Porsche, -the steering, handling, control and suspension feel is significantly better than the soft old Cadillac.  The same goes with the amount of effort required, with the wallowing Cadillac you will be white knuckling it at times to maintain control whereas in the Porsche you’re just driving the car effortlessly.

[fr8dog]

You'll notice a difference. Will it be what you're looking for? Won't know til you ride.

I have K-Tech valve kit and springs up front. Night and day difference for the better.

Nitron shock in the rear. 

in the twisties the bike is more capable than me. It makes me better. Around town kind of harsh. Has lots of adjustment, just haven't been able to dial it in.

I have a lot of miles on the shock. Time for service or maybe ask for different valving. Or try Ohlins.

Currently using the oem shock I had rebuilt. Sprung for my weight and innards from an FZ-8. The ride is more comfortable, but doesn't handle as well.

On a side note, I have 94 BMW R1100RS which has full Ohlins. It handles amazingly well for a 27 year old bike. Maybe Ohlins is the way to go.

[betoney]

26 minutes ago, fr8dog said:

On a side note, I have 94 BMW R1100RS which has full Ohlins. It handles amazingly well for a 27 year old bike. Maybe Ohlins is the way to go.

Ohlins makes quality products for sure but I truly don't believe that Ohlins is better than any other brand.  ANY shock is only as good as the valving configuration on the inside. 

Years ago there was a forum vendor, Forks by Matt, who built fork cartridges in his garage.  He had various shims and valves that he assembled himself for a hell of a bargain price, nothing fancy, no billet aluminum or gold anodizing but they worked fantastic.

[2and3cylinders]

7 hours ago, betoney said:

Ohlins makes quality products for sure but I truly don't believe that Ohlins is better than any other brand.  ANY shock is only as good as the valving configuration on the inside. 

Years ago there was a forum vendor, Forks by Matt, who built fork cartridges in his garage.  He had various shims and valves that he assembled himself for a hell of a bargain price, nothing fancy, no billet aluminum or gold anodizing but they worked fantastic.

For my fastest red 15, Matt did my custom fork cartridge revalving (on an exchange basis, I did the swap labor, etc.) adding rebound in the left leg with OEM rod & cap along with adjustable compression, and also sold me Sonic springs, as well as a massaged Razor R shock with custom spacers with a Torrington mini roller pin thrust bearing to ease spring preload adjustment.  My total cash outlay in 17 was around $1,300 or so including special tools plus my time.  I won't call the results a magic carpet ride or B Group amateur race worthy but it's been excellent on the slab and PDG in the twisties, even with my major mass, aged skills and moderate luggage.

Now I also upgraded the brakes with Spiegler lines and R1 320 mm rotors and radial front brake master cylinder along with HH+ front pads (stock are only GG rated).  These performance bits along with a McCruise CC, custom Sargent saddle, 3 different screens for spring, summer and fall, Rental Street Naked bars, KTM Adventure hand guards, twin LED driving lights on the Givi case guards, Shad SH46 top case & SH36 panniers, SW-Mototech tank bags (Engage & City) and skid plate, lowered more forward foot pegs (that still don't drag), front & rear fender / hugger extensions, X-Blaster tailight, LED turn signal bulbs, auxiliary brake & sider marker LED light strips, headlight modulator, etc. were all a major investment of money and time that transformed my FJ into a fantastic lightweight sport tourer that exceeds my expectations every time I clamber aboard.

Was it worth the time and expense?  Hell yes!

Would of it been much easier if a bit more expensive to just buy a BMW S1000XR rocketship with all the bells & whistles?  Probably.

Would an XR be more fun when I twisted my wrist quickly?  Likely.

Would an XR be more personally satisfying?  Maybe, but I think not.

[roadrash83]

I traded in my 2014 BMW S1000rr (by far the most amazing bike I ever owned) for my 2019 Tracer GT. The dealer let me test ride the S1000XR for a weekend and I could not take the vibration in the handle bars. Test rode the 900 GT for about 10mi and the rest is history, the only problem with the GT is it's lacking the candy red metallic 2015 paint.🙂

[2and3cylinders]

Yes, the red is sublime in sunlight but scratches and wears too easily.  Still there hasn't been a FJ / Tracer / T9 that looks better.  The 21 Red T9 is not bad but the headlights and gauges are just "What were they thinking?".  I've just have too much invested to consider anything else.

I packed my FJs handlebars with Crossman BBs and added bar end sliders with the KTM hand guards, and they together helped reduce vibration a lot.  Keeping the TB synced is crucial too but the seem to hold the setting well.  I tried Grip Puppies but they were for me a bit slick, and their nominal increased diameter aggrevated my thumb injuries and arthritis.

A friend has a beautiful Red 15 or 16 XR he bought used for a steal and loves it.  He added heavy bar end weights but hasn't BB filled the bars, and doesn't complain about vibration; having ridden it to Cali and back twice.  He loves the auto suspension and QS Blipper. The thing is so quick and fast, I don't even bother trying to stay with him when he guns it.  I'm really a bit jealous.

But I like the charactor of a triple over a 4, though I've not ridden an R1 or MT-10 with its unique firing order.  I've heard them of course and they have a dull droning sound. 

The CP3 is also easy to work on once you get the hang of stripping the bodywork, and adjusting the valves.  Not as easy as my VTR but it's carbs can be a pain to clean.  I have 3 or 4 sets of carbs for it and clean them assembly line fashion, rotating to a fresh pair every few years.

I just need much more time to ride; in another year maybe I can fully retire, if I live that long.

In Chicago, we have 2 seasons; Winter and Construction.

When it's freezing, we use the time off bike to wrench.  Our only break was the Progressive IMS bike show in early February but in 20 due to the pandemic it was cancelled, and in 21 they had it way out northwest in August, so I didn't bother to go. Nothing is yet scheduled for 22.

Sorry for getting off topic.

[kilo3]

7 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

Now I also upgraded the brakes with Spiegler lines and R1 320 mm rotors and radial front brake master cylinder along with HH+ front pads (stock are only GG rated).  These performance bits along with a McCruise CC, custom Sargent saddle, 3 different screens for spring, summer and fall, Rental Street Naked bars, KTM Adventure hand guards, twin LED driving lights on the Givi case guards, Shad SH46 top case & SH36 panniers, SW-Mototech tank bags (Engage & City) and skid plate, lowered more forward foot pegs (that still don't drag), front & rear fender / hugger extensions, X-Blaster tailight, LED turn signal bulbs, auxiliary brake & sider marker LED light strips, headlight modulator, etc. were all a major investment of money and time that transformed my FJ into a fantastic lightweight sport tourer that exceeds my expectations every time I clamber aboard.

Was it worth the time and expense?  Hell yes!

Would of it been much easier if a bit more expensive to just buy a BMW S1000XR rocketship with all the bells & whistles?  Probably.

Would an XR be more fun when I twisted my wrist quickly?  Likely.

Would an XR be more personally satisfying?  Maybe, but I think not.

 

43 minutes ago, 2and3cylinders said:

Yes, the red is sublime in sunlight but scratches and wears too easily.  Still there hasn't been a FJ / Tracer / T9 that looks better.  The 21 Red T9 is not bad but the headlights and gauges are just "What were they thinking?".  I've just have too much invested to consider anything else.

I packed my FJs handlebars with Crossman BBs and added bar end sliders with the KTM hand guards, and they together helped reduce vibration a lot.  Keeping the TB synced is crucial too but the seem to hold the setting well.  I tried Grip Puppies but they were for me a bit slick, and their nominal increased diameter aggrevated my thumb injuries and arthritis.

A friend has a beautiful Red 15 or 16 XR he bought used for a steal and loves it.  He added heavy bar end weights but hasn't BB filled the bars, and doesn't complain about vibration; having ridden it to Cali and back twice.  He loves the auto suspension and QS Blipper. The thing is so quick and fast, I don't even bother trying to stay with him when he guns it.  I'm really a bit jealous.

But I like the charactor of a triple over a 4, though I've not ridden an R1 or MT-10 with its unique firing order.  I've heard them of course and they have a dull droning sound. 

The CP3 is also easy to work on once you get the hang of stripping the bodywork, and adjusting the valves.  Not as easy as my VTR but it's carbs can be a pain to clean.  I have 3 or 4 sets of carbs for it and clean them assembly line fashion, rotating to a fresh pair every few years.

I just need much more time to ride; in another year maybe I can fully retire, if I live that long.

In Chicago, we have 2 seasons; Winter and Construction.

When it's freezing, we use the time off bike to wrench.  Our only break was the Progressive IMS bike show in early February but in 20 due to the pandemic it was cancelled, and in 21 they had it way out northwest in August, so I didn't bother to go. Nothing is yet scheduled for 22.

Sorry for getting off topic.

Well this all might be an exercise in futility since the ohlins setup I was looking at is back ordered till April and I don't much like working on motorcycles during riding season.  I'll look around for other options but remote preload is a must.

[roadrash83]

Take a look at the Penske 8900 series for the FJ09.

[fr8dog]

On 12/28/2021 at 9:30 PM, betoney said:

Ohlins makes quality products for sure but I truly don't believe that Ohlins is better than any other brand.  ANY shock is only as good as the valving configuration on the inside. 

Years ago there was a forum vendor, Forks by Matt, who built fork cartridges in his garage.  He had various shims and valves that he assembled himself for a hell of a bargain price, nothing fancy, no billet aluminum or gold anodizing but they worked fantastic.

Matt disappeared when I was looking to upgrade. I tried contacting him a few times.