Clutch resistance

[Manxkiwi]

I thought right at the beginning of this thread that it could be the ramps in the clutch. It has a slip assist clutch, like my Triumph. If there is abnormal wear on the ramps, I reckon it could manifest in this way. That's a clutch apart job though. I don't think wear on the 'fingers' of the basket would show like this as the movement of the plates simply isn't enough.

A thought for a test on this, not sure if it will work, but worth a try perhaps? Put the bike in gear (not running), roll it back against the gearbox (maybe try clutch in and clutch out?). Then see if you feel the 'notchiness'? This might unload the ramps enough to feel a difference? Worth a try imo as it's free.

[Manxkiwi]

5 minutes ago, petshark said:

I flushed a ton of transparant silicone lubricant through there and it came out at the bottom completely clean. With both ends detached you can see pieces of the cable that normally never see daylight and the cable looks brand new in every way.

But.. you were right!!

It is the cable. 
I used vise grips (with some cardboard in between for protection) to check the clutch arm on it’s own and it was completely normal. Great!

I lubed the cable again but it is definitely binding somehow. When it’s not under tension it is super loose. I can twist and move it to its extremes but there is no way to get any hint that something is not right inside. When I pull on both ends and move it this way I can immediately feel the familiar jerkiness. 

I then spent a lot of time on the routing of the cable and disconnected the cable tie near the top. I was trying to change the angles to find if I could make it better or worse but had little success. 

So I guess I’ll get a new cable. 😁
 

You wrote this while I was writing my post! Ha ha.

Sounds like you've got it now. Good to hear. A simple cheap resolution is always good. Cheers.

[peteinpa]

👍Let us know when you get a cable if it works.

My bike only had 1k miles when I bought it. I replaced my clutch cable to get the updated one. When I pulled the OEM one out it had 2 spots of abrasion on the outer sheath that went all the way through. 

You never know what another owner might do to a bike.

Edit: It's also possible that a clutch cable was "robbed" off the showroom floor for a customer bike and you or I got the bad one. 

Edited March 3, 2021 by peteinpa

[petshark]

So the good news is that it's solved and the bad news is that I don't know how it happened.

I installed a new cable and now it's back to normal, no more binding or jerkiness. I had to cut the old cable because I could not route that metal bend through the engine and that means I was able to inspect the cable in detail:

It's in perfect condition apart from two slight kinks at the place where the flexible tube connects to the metal curved one.

Before cutting I pulled these apart so I actually may have made those kinks after disassembly but I have no other clues as to the cause of the binding. By pulling them apart I did find out that the inner tube at this point is made of a flat metal "winding" (looks like a flat spring). When slightly pulled apart inside this could certainly be something that the cable can bind on.

So my only theory is that I managed to bend it somehow while installing the aftermarket lever. I really don't know how, I don't remember doing anything unusual, and it still very weird that it suddenly started binding many miles after the installation and in the middle of a ride.

When I want to lube the cable I roll in the fine-tune wheel at the lever which just allows me to pull the cable (metal curve) out of it's seat. That puts some stress on the cable which is held in place by a clamp a little lower but it should be able to take it, no? I've always done it that way on the Kawasakis.

Just to be safe I installed the new cable by putting it in the lever and only then putting the lever bolt in to avoid bending anything. This method means I need to remove the mirror and the handguard to get to the bolt every time I want to lube the cable which is more work but I might as well grease the bushing at the same time I guess.

[peteinpa]

I'm amazed you found a cable in stock.

Glad it's fixed and you're back in business.👍👍

[Manxkiwi]

A wee thing I do is adjust the 'fine-adjust' wheel at the lever so the slot faces down. Up is just asking for water to enter.

[petshark]

1 hour ago, Manxkiwi said:

A wee thing I do is adjust the 'fine-adjust' wheel at the lever so the slot faces down. Up is just asking for water to enter.

Down and back so the riding wind blows everything out instead of in 👍

 

2 hours ago, peteinpa said:

I'm amazed you found a cable in stock.

Glad it's fixed and you're back in business.👍👍

Me too! Thank you

[Manxkiwi]

25 minutes ago, petshark said:

Down and back so the riding wind blows everything out instead of in 👍

 

Indeed..

Edited March 4, 2021 by Manxkiwi

[petshark]

The jerkiness that I demonstrated in the video was resolved by installing a new clutch cable but turns out that it is not related to the "double bump" I feel in the lever when riding and shifting. That is still there just like before and everything points to the clutch itself again. The dealer advised to spray some penetrating oil in the clutch bearing/seal and that did nothing. I may have to take the clutch apart after all and investigate.

So this is the updated scenario:

Quote

 

The issue is felt when riding and shifting normally; where you briefly let go of the gas and pull in the clutch to shift. This way I get exactly two obvious bumps at the beginning of the travel. I would say where the clutch starts to let go.

Yesterday I experimented at speed and found that it does not happen when I keep the throttle open and pull the clutch. The RPM sky rocket obviously and this is no way to shift but it may mean something to someone.

Clutch lever pull while Engine off / fixed RPM / climbing RPM / very low RPM (coming to a stop)
= no more issue now that the cable is replaced

Clutch lever pull while Engine breaking/under load while quickly changing gears
= double "bump" that is very noticeable during a quick lever pull.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by petshark

[thewrenchbender]

8 hours ago, petshark said:

The jerkiness that I demostrated in the video was resolved by installing a new clutch cable but turns out that it is not related to the "double bump" I feel in the lever when riding and shifting. That is still there just like before and everything points to the clutch itself again. The dealer advised to spray some penetrating oil in the clutch bearing/seal and that did nothing. I may have to take the clutch apart after all and investigate.

So this is the updated scenario:

 

Been fixing stuff and riding street bikes my whole adult life (did take some years off riding-whole married w/children deal). Not an expert at anything. Day job last 30+ years (crap almost 40) as a cert’ed aircraft mechanic.

The clutch feel on my Tracer GT is just freaking strange compared to anything I’ve ever rode-but also only bike I’ve owned (have ridden a few others tho) with a slipper clutch. My ‘20 has 5k miles on it (purchased new). 

The double bump is “normal” based on my experience with my ‘20 above. Zero clue why they have the spring on the shift arm. Really makes it feel flakier. With the spring on the clutch switch plunger shoving the other way the “feel” is pretty horrible. 

Even before I added adjustable levers to get the engage point where I wanted it, had to slack the cable well beyond “spec”. Even with the adjustable levers, is still well beyond spec, which exaggerates the funky feel with the springs at both ends (arm and switch).

Think you found the real issue with your cable. Might be chasing smoke with a butterfly net.

If you find yourself in NW Ohio yer welcome to take mine for a spin-as long as I can follow you on yours...

Not being critical-just trying to be real honest. Ride the shit out of it. If it breaks, fix it or pay somebody to fix it. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by thewrenchbender
Punctuation is a bitch.

[petshark]

10 hours ago, thewrenchbender said:

The double bump is “normal” based on my experience with my ‘20 above. Zero clue why they have the spring on the shift arm. Really makes it feel flakier. With the spring on the clutch switch plunger shoving the other way the “feel” is pretty horrible. 

Even before I added adjustable levers to get the engage point where I wanted it, had to slack the cable well beyond “spec”. Even with the adjustable levers, is still well beyond spec, which exaggerates the funky feel with the springs at both ends (arm and switch).

Thank you for your insight and your kind offer. I'm in Belgium and there is no trip to Ohio in my foreseeable future but who knows? 🙂

Are you referring to the spring that is visible from the outside on the shift arm? Because I included riding with that spring disconnected in my tests: I still get the "double bumps". The spring on the clutch switch is very light on mine. If I move the lever without the cable attached I hardly feel it's there. The double bump is also not related to the two clicks of the micro switch. They happen sooner, right when the clutch starts releasing, and one immediately after the other. It feels like the cable is binding but now it's proven that that is not the case.

I've gotten the advice to just ride it a couple of times now and I will certainly do that. But partly what attracts me to motorcycling is enjoying a fine tuned machine. Now that I'm learning to wrench on it, that part is even more on the forefront.

The thing is that to me the slipper clutch has a weird feel but I don't mind that, it just feels like something is broken and that kind of ruins it for me. I am not OCD but have a hard time letting go once I have set out to do or fix something.

Also I rode the bike for weeks before this started so I have a clear idea of what it should be. That ride I was afraid the cable was about to break and babied the clutch all the way home so it's not subtle. 

I will keep looking and appreciate any suggestions.

Edited March 6, 2021 by petshark
Spelling

[thewrenchbender]

I hear you. And in my day job OCD can pretty much be a minimum requirement. Air is pretty thin at 45,000 feet.  

And yes, the shift arm spring is very light, maybe if it isn’t there, the clutch switch plunger will keep the handle from “returning”? The double bump-which depending on speed/accel/decel-is more evident in some situations than others on my bike. 

Again, really pleased that you found the cable issue. Wish you were closer so we could trade and ride for a day.

Have been working at a one aircraft flight dept for about a decade now. Only having access to one example of a type makes figuring stuff like this out a lot more difficult, some days for strange issues it would be really great to have even just one more example for reference.

Good luck, clear skies, open roads (unless you enjoy urban combat) and keep the dirty side down. 

Regards;

Mark

[PhotoAl]

On my 2020 haven't noticed a double bump when downshifting - which I like to do.  The Tracer GT has so much torque that I generally find myself at lower RPMs that I'm used to on prior bikes.  I'm not counting BMW F800GT here as it was different.  My CBR600RR and my ZX6R 636 I loved to bang down the gears at relatively high RPMs particularly the CBR.  I don't recall anything unusual on the clutch pull on the ZX6R which also had a slipper clutch - di really enjoy the slipper clutch as it really did work.  I had a favorite off ramp on my way to work that I would hit pretty hard for the street and downshift a couple of times.  On the CBR was a bit sloppy a time or two and stepped the rear out a little.  No issue on the ZX6R.  I'm going to get a ride in today or tomorrow and will carefully check out the clutch feel to see if I notice a clutch double bump.  

The shaft that goes thru the housing which you were told to lubricate with penetrating oil is where I'm still wondering.  I don't think of penetrating oil as a great lubricant but rather something which will loosen rusted or corroded fasteners.  My inclination would be to take the cover off and disassemble and check and lube the shaft where it goes thru the housing.  I agree on the OCD/meticulous work.  When I work on my bike it needs to be perfect, don't want a failure on the road.  LOL had that last year 1,100 miles from home!  Over the last several bikes I've notice a few things about gears, shifting and clutches.  Clutch adjustment can make a big difference.  My BMW was really particular - so much so it was almost never right.  Last service the technician paid careful attention to it and it was great.  If not right and the oil was fresh it could be almost impossible to get neutral when the engine was hot and running.  Some gearboxes like fast hard shifts at higher RPMs but not slow shifts at low RPMs.  Oil can make a difference, with some oils gearbox rattle gets louder sooner after a change than others.  Some oils have more "clutch drag" than others and that will change from fresh oil to about to change oil.  I'm deliberately not mentioning an oil brand as don't want to start an oil thread.  My Tracer GT is the best bike I've had, not perfect but a good solid bike that I expect to be reliable.  

[petshark]

6 hours ago, thewrenchbender said:

The double bump-which depending on speed/accel/decel-is more evident in some situations than others on my bike. 

Again, really pleased that you found the cable issue. Wish you were closer so we could trade and ride for a day.

Have been working at a one aircraft flight dept for about a decade now. Only having access to one example of a type makes figuring stuff like this out a lot more difficult, some days for strange issues it would be really great to have even just one more example for reference.

That is so cool! You must really be intimate with that aircraft. How old is she? I have always been in awe that these machines have such long lives, which I guess is a side-effect of being so meticulously cared for.

You seem to be the only one so far with the same issue and I am pretty sure that most Tracers don't behave like this. Did yours do this from the start?

3 hours ago, PhotoAl said:

I'm going to get a ride in today or tomorrow and will carefully check out the clutch feel to see if I notice a clutch double bump.  

The shaft that goes thru the housing which you were told to lubricate with penetrating oil is where I'm still wondering.  I don't think of penetrating oil as a great lubricant but rather something which will loosen rusted or corroded fasteners.  My inclination would be to take the cover off and disassemble and check and lube the shaft where it goes thru the housing.

Thank you! I've described it as mostly felt under engine breaking but that is not a good description. It's just when shifting up. I will take apart the clutch at some point but for now...

I've actually tried out a workaround today with very good results. I've created a new thread:

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by petshark

[thewrenchbender]

3 hours ago, petshark said:

That is so cool! You must really be intimate with that aircraft. How old is she? I have always been in awe that these machines have such long lives, which I guess is a side-effect of being so meticulously cared for.

You seem to be the only one so far with the same issue and I am pretty sure that most Tracers don't behave like this. Did yours do this from the start?

Thank you! I've described it as mostly felt under engine breaking but that is not a good description. It's just when shifting up. I will take apart the clutch at some point but for now...

I've actually tried out a workaround today with very good results. I've created a new thread:

 

Was 3 years old when we got it (was built in late ‘07) and very low time. It actually is in the middle of getting replaced-new one showed up two weeks ago, old one is going in for lease turn-in eval (see how much the bank is gonna ding us according to the terms of the lease).

So currently getting the new one online, and making the old one go away. Global pandemic reducing our flight hours makes this a little easier-but is still a struggle.

The first half of my career, took care of two different small freight/executive charter fleets consisting of similar types of smaller recip aircraft as well as maintaining “outside customer” aircraft. Was indeed intimately familiar with those due to working on many many different examples of same. For most of that time was the person directly responsible to the FAA for the maintenance/mechanical condition of the charter fleet.

Jet world is a little different as the sole technician, I perform “line maintenance” only-and travel with the aircraft to larger maintenance facilities once a year for scheduled inspection events. Have to be able to troubleshoot literally every system at the very least to determine if it’s a job I can accomplish in-house or make arrangements to have repaired at a facility with more capabilities (I.e. special tooling and/or more techs).

I have never noticed the bump/s on decel, it just feels like a slipper clutch to me (most experience with one is on an ‘08 R1).

I have been sorta randomly experiencing it on accel since I did the first service on it and started riding it like I stole it. Until reading your post, honestly never thought about it, just figured it was an Tracer thing. If I am going to feel it, is during moderate accel, typically when increasing throttle while clutched-shifting. Balls-to-the-wall I’ve never felt it, but then again, most of the time just use the quick-shift feature.

Sorry for the length-hope this helps-and with regard to my OCD level, the pavement can be pretty hard at a ton-up at an altitude of zero feet, draw your own conclusions as to how I maintain my motorbikes...

Mark