Tracer 9 IMU - Did anyone test the ABS while cornering?

[piotrek]

On 5/2/2022 at 10:15 AM, petshark said:

There are no skills required.

That's a slippery slope right there. 😁

[daboo]

On 5/2/2022 at 1:58 AM, petshark said:

I completely understand the reactions from all of you who have been riding a long time. I'm sure that I would be in your camp if it wasn't for the fact that I only started my motorcycle journey 10 years ago and have always leaned heavily on the tools at hand.

It took me probably 20,000 miles to activate the ABS on my first ABS-equipped bike.  It was in a situation where I had no choice but to grab onto the brakes for all I was worth.  Afterward, I thought about the chattering feeling and realized it was the ABS kicking in.

Riding without all the aids, IMHO, makes you a better rider and gives you a better experience to enjoy.  Even if you have the aids available, you should never put yourself in the situation of routinely using them.  There's a feel good riders have of what their bike is doing and the traction the situation has.  If you're using the rider aids "heavily", you're pushing the conditions to the limit with no buffer for the unexpected.  And you won't have developed any "feel" on your own.

One of the joys I get in riding, is the feeling of being one with the bike.  Of feeling it respond to my thoughts.  I don't want to be disconnected from the experience with anything getting between me and the situation.  There's also a feeling of accomplishment knowing that it is my skills making this happen.  If I'm using those rider aids routinely, it would be like alternately mashing on the throttle and mashing on the brakes.  There's no skill involved in that case.  It's all the bike, not the rider.  Anyone can do that.

 

Your question in the first post, brought up a funny thought in my mind.  In about a year, someone will come on this thread saying they tried it and apologize for taking so long to respond.  They'll add that they would've responded sooner, but they've been in the hospital till now.     

Chris

Edited May 3, 2022 by daboo

[petshark]

12 hours ago, daboo said:

It took me probably 20,000 miles to activate the ABS on my first ABS-equipped bike.  It was in a situation where I had no choice but to grab onto the brakes for all I was worth.  Afterward, I thought about the chattering feeling and realized it was the ABS kicking in.

Riding without all the aids, IMHO, makes you a better rider and gives you a better experience to enjoy.  Even if you have the aids available, you should never put yourself in the situation of routinely using them.  There's a feel good riders have of what their bike is doing and the traction the situation has.  If you're using the rider aids "heavily", you're pushing the conditions to the limit with no buffer for the unexpected.  And you won't have developed any "feel" on your own.

One of the joys I get in riding, is the feeling of being one with the bike.  Of feeling it respond to my thoughts.  I don't want to be disconnected from the experience with anything getting between me and the situation.  There's also a feeling of accomplishment knowing that it is my skills making this happen.  If I'm using those rider aids routinely, it would be like alternately mashing on the throttle and mashing on the brakes.  There's no skill involved in that case.  It's all the bike, not the rider.  Anyone can do that.

 

Your question in the first post, brought up a funny thought in my mind.  In about a year, someone will come on this thread saying they tried it and apologize for taking so long to respond.  They'll add that they would've responded sooner, but they've been in the hospital till now.     

Chris

I do enjoy feeling as one with the machine and 99% of my rides I try and do exactly that. I am not leaning on the rider aids at all during that time.

I often make some time though to advance skills that I don't use during those 99%. That includes full-lock figure-eights, small stoppies and panic brake simulations. When I'm riding down a boring straight road and there is nothing in sight I might check my rearview mirror, accelerate to 70 km/h, pick a visual reference point and after reaching it brake as hard as I can. After coming to a full stop I check how many meters it took me, sometimes noting if the surface made it longer or shorter than I expected. This way I have a feel from experience how much I space I will need to come to a full stop when someone appears out of a driveway or something similar. I am confident that my reaction time and reflex to execute a panic manoeuvre will be optimal from doing this frequently. I can't imagine not wanting to know and internalise your bike's exact braking distance in any situation.

All I can do is demonstrate with the video what I saw with my own eyes: that BMW's cornering ABS works as well as regular ABS. I understand the sentiment that triggering it is dangerous but let's agree to disagree on that. In my opinion you can never be one with a machine that has tricks up it's sleeve that you don't want to know about until you are in a life-or-death situation. To me that is unsafe and what I'm doing is really going for maximum safety. But I don't think we will be able to convince each other in this thread and that is ok.

I do the same with cars btw, when it's wet and I have access to an empty parking lot I'll evaluate how the ABS responds to different situations.

Edited May 4, 2022 by petshark

[petshark]

I found this great article if anyone is interested:

https://www.motorcycle.com/safety/mo-tested-cornering-abs.html
 

Quote

 

I could throw the KTM into a corner and and roughly hammer the brakes without the front tire losing its grip and without blatantly obvious pulsing from the brake system – the bike simply scrubbed off speed at a rapid pace,” says Duke. “The only drama was gathering the nerve to brusquely apply the brakes, not the physics-defying electronic execution.

 

 

 

While trying to answer my own question, I found that Yamaha does seem to make their own IMU, which was developed for the 2015 R1.

https://global.yamaha-motor.com/design_technology/technology/electronic/001/

And some more info about this:

Quote

6-Axis IMU
The 2021 Tracer 9 GT features a newly developed 6-axis Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU) that retains the base performance of proven IMU in the YZF-R1 but is 50% smaller and 40% lighter due to a thorough review of the sensor layout. The engine control unit (ECU) that receives and reflects the data from the IMU is equipped with three rider aids: a Traction Control System (TCS), Slide Control System (SCS) and the front-wheel LIFt control system (LIF). The Brake Control System is controlled by the Hydraulic Control Unit (separate unit from ECU) which modulates front and rear brake pressure based on data from the IMU as well as the front and rear wheel speed sensors. All three systems work together to help the rider concentrate on better extracting the machine’s potential. Each of the systems can also be turned on or off and have their levels of intervention adjusted to preference.

(source: https://www.totalmotorcycle.com/motorcycles/2021/2021-yamaha-tracer9-gt )

Edited May 4, 2022 by petshark

[jthayer09]

PSA to the new T9GT owners cornering ABS is off by default. Bike is set to BC1 (standard ABS) from dealer, need to turn on BC2 to test.

I haven't tracked the bike, but in my testing on twisty roads in Appalachia, BC2 (cornering ABS) works well! You know how when you're hard in a corner and brake the bike tries to stand itself up? Cornering ABS solves that, it manages power and slide for you so you stay leaned.

The confidence boost is worth it alone, and it is not obtrusive at all. I like it, and for me it's valuable for those narrow roads with curves and the oncoming traffic doesn't even try to stay in their lane so you have to brake mid corner to avoid getting hit .

[texscottyd]

6 hours ago, petshark said:

All I can do is demonstrate with the video what I saw with my own eyes: that BMW's cornering ABS works as well as regular ABS. I understand the sentiment that triggering it is dangerous but let's agree to disagree on that. <snip>  But I don't think we will be able to convince each other in this thread and that is ok.

Actually, I'm 100% in agreement with you.  ABS (and especially cornering ABS) can be a literal lifesaver:  It's there to help you when all hell is breaking loose, and you've stepped over the line of being in control of your current situation.   Arguably the more experienced riders are less likely to find themselves in that position, but it's still a fantastic safety advancement...  you only need it once to TOTALLY justify having it on board.   

My statement is more of a personal reflection of how my own experiences, based on the equipment & technology I had available at the time, has formed all of those automatic muscle-memory split-second reactions.   That's actually a problem:   Experience is valuable, but technology advancements can make your experience less relevant.   I've learned to balance brakes combined with a lot of lean angle, but it also has created this "NOOOO!!!!" encoding to just grabbing the front brake when I'm already scratching for edge grip in a corner.  

Do I want cornering ABS?  Absolutely!   Do I think I'll ever be comfortable intentionally triggering it just to see how it works?   Probably not...     Your mileage may vary. 

Great discussion thread!

 

[Eventhorizon]

So here a little story about how old habbits needs to be adjusted for a bike with electronic aids, esp modern ones.

All my life riding motorcycles (various kinds for about 30 years) Id say that I was really good about keeping out of trouble for the most part and only a few of times did I get crossed up a little bit and a couple of times almost ate asphalt, one time I did...

I always practiced in the parking lots and also while on the streets (no one behind me let me emergency brake right now or pretend that manhole cover is oil and I need to avoid it). I knew when the front ends would start to get uneasy or the tire would sing before losing grip, along with the rear end. I also practiced to a point (and it has saved me) emergency braking in corners, again listening and taking in feedback from the bike working the front and rear to keep the bike going in the corner. This alone saved me once or twice.

The Tracer 9 GT was my first bike with ABS and all the electronic stuff. I dont consider them a hindrance and I do not consider them replacement for road skills. I did consider ABS welcomed but not a requirement for a motorcycle. I got the bike and set everything on "2"

After I got the bike the same rules come into play like before. Play around in the parking lot and street to feel the limits of the bike with the addition of how the ABS reacts. I still want to know how far I can pull the front brake lever before triggering the ABS, along with the rear, wet or dry pavement.

A month later of owning the new bike flying home one day from work on the highway sudden brake lights ahead and I put on the brakes and start braking hard and down shifting, well traffic suddenly brakes harder to a stop and for a split moment I froze worried id lock up a wheel with the bumper of the car ahead of me closing in quick (or I was closing in on that bumper). I was afraid of locking up a wheel and looking for an exit. I snapped out of it and pulled the front even harder and stopped within a reasonable distance and did not trigger the ABS. Even the fact that ABS did not trigger, showed that I was not using the full potential of braking of the bike.

And that is what this story is about.. not depending on but discovering the full potential of the bike while still having some what of a safety net there when you go from 98% braking (up right or in a corner) and go to 104% and electronics bring you back over the 100% edge.

While there are most likely very few people on this planet that can say ABS, traction control, anti wheelie are a hindrance, for the rest of us they allow us to get on the brakes, squeeze to that 98% potential and not be afraid of the consequences to cross that 100% mark because electronics will help to keep us in check.

But I still have ~30 years of habits I need to adjust. I know how to brake in a corner but I'll still poop a little when the electronics kick in. I like to discover capabilities by testing and learning them, not what a video says.

[nhchris]

At 70+ years young I welcome every rider aid I can get!

I get a laugh out of the argument some riders make about ABS stopping distance being slightly longer than a properly  applied front brake.  That might be true for the small minority of race-seasoned riders.

But for the rest of us who don’t practice panic stops weekly it ain’t true. Instinctively Grabbing a BIG handful of front brake in an emergency stop will quickly lock the front wheel… until the ABS activates.   WHEW !!!

Thank you modern science.

[PhotoAl]

Note to readers:  models prior to the Tracer 9 GT do not have cornering ABS.  Tracer 900 GT does not have it.

Talk of testing ABS reminds me of my first bike with ABS.  I had a 2012 CBR600RR, a wonderful bike but no ABS.  Decided to get a bike with ABS as I rode to work every day and rode a lot in the rain.  Found a used 2013 Kawasaki ZX6R 636 ABS.  Looked it over and liked it and the dealer (not Kawasaki but the other "K" brand) said it was ABS - had the sensor rings.  Bought it and rode it home.   Thought about testing out the ABS a couple of times but didn't.   A couple of weeks later was looking the bike over and thought "haven't seen the ABS light come on".  Checked the front brake by tracing the line from the master cylinder to the caliper - wait no module no black box!  Oops it doesn't have ABS.  LOL dealer was super nice about it and quite embarrassed and offered to buy the bike back or give me $1,000.  I took the money and traded it on a new old stock 2014.  I actually used the ABS on the bike a couple of times.  Once in a long stop and it only 'bumped' two times and the other when a driver pulled out to deliberately block me and almost ran me into a fire truck!  Have video of that and the following conversation.  In the video the ABS is obvious in slow motion and since was going slow it only got like three actuations.  Traction control on the ZX6R was great as well.  Had it intervene a couple of times during cornering and it kept the rear in shape with very little movement.  I'm all for testing but make sure it is turned on and in the proper mode first and you really do have the feature.  

IMU on the Tracer 9 GT is one of the features that has me contemplating trading for one.  I'm not young and any aid I can get is appreciated.  ABS saved me in the car once for sure, just hurried the brake pedal and it stopped - thought for sure was going to rear-end the super slow idiot that pulled over in front of me.  My current car has "auto braking" which alerts me.  The alert goes off occasionally as I keep it set with a greater distance but it's a great warning tool for those rare occasions when something has distracted me and the person in front does something unexpected.  I have not found any volunteers so haven't checked the emergency pedestrian braking system.  At the track I've seen a number of cars "saved" by the nanny.  Have also seen a few bikes where I want to say "turn the nanny on you don't know pow to control a power wheelie".  

[2and3cylinders]

This year makes it 50 years of continuous road riding; by continuous I mean I’ve have at least one street bike I rode whenever I could; and for most of these years I’ve had a selection of bikes to choose from.

I also raced off and on in my yute, and even got in one full season in 1974.  Two stroke Yamaha production racers mostly, with a Suzi and Kawi smoker here and there.  Until I bought a brand spankin new silver 1980 Honda CB750F (with a matching Vetter Quicksilver frame mounted fairing),  I’d never before owned a bike with disc brakes, let alone dual discs (but it did have a drum in back).  I had ridden friend’s disc braked bikes occasionally and did get a fair bit of miles on  my roommate’s 76 RD400 with its single front and rear discs.  My double-knocker 750F had the lighter Comstar wheels with tubeless but bias-ply tires verses the RDs heavier cast tube type wheels.  Before that all my street bikes were mostly British singles and twins with drum brakes front and rear.  I did buy and sell a week later a 72 blue and white Triumph 750 Tiger that had a front disc though.  My fav marques were Matchless and AJS; fairly prevalent in SoCal versus the rest of the country.  I’m not sure when or on what bike I first rode on real (decent) radial tires but it could have been my beloved 1988 Honda NT650 Hawk GT.  What a revelation radials tires were, especially compared to the tires I was used to that seemed as hard as hockey pucks.  Even with its single front disc, which I enhanced with a braided line and HH+ pads, I could do 70 mph stoppies that slid for easily 10 or 15 feet (maybe more?).

My point is that between sticky radial tires and disc brakes, the feel, safety and stopping distances even I can manage today (well not actually today with my arm only a week or so out of a sling) still amazes me.  I clearly remember, which is rare for me these days, having my huge 260 mm, ducted, Grimeca four leading shoe front drum brake (I traded an entire albeit not pristine BSA Bantam 125 for) on my Matchless 500 single smoking and fading to nothing while blazing down the back side of Mt. Palomar.  I was literally screaming in my full-face “Banzai!”, wishing I truly had a boat anchor to throw out.  Somehow I kept upright on the tarmac (not necessarily always in my lane), and made it down.  I then stopped in the shade until by riding bud arrived and bummed a smoke off of him (even though I don’t smoke).  He had to hold my shaking hand steady while he lit it for me. 

Which gets me to my 15 fastest red FJ-09 being not only the first bike I’ve owned with fuel injection but ABS too.  I routinely each spring find a quite parking lot away from prying eyes to shake off the winter rust practicing my own version of Moto Gymkhana.  I’ve tried many times to activate the ABS without much success.  Now it may be the better feel I have braking to the limit with the 2014 R1 front brake radial master cylinder and 320 mm rotors, the Spiegler braded lines and HH+ sintered pads I installed but I just can’t seem to bring myself to get the pump clicking on dry pavement.  I have kicked it off in front on wet grass after a flush and bleed, and after hitting a specific series 2 or 3 ripples while braking hard going downhill.  Note: I’ve mostly tuned the ripple stutter out with fork fluid air gap and damping adjustments.

I can only imagine trying to kick-in cornering ABS.  I subconsciously trail brake, 90% of the time in front only, as I find the FJ rear tricky to modulate even with the OE GG pads.  I reserve hard front and moderate rear braking for panic stops, which due to my sixth sense about other road users and caution where sightlines are short, I very rarely need to execute.  I also do not find my FJ has much of a tendency to stand up even when trail braking relatively hard (for me anyway).

I’d love on my next bike to have cornering ABS, slip control, TC, LC, MSR, 6-mode electronic suspension, etc..  Maybe when I finally can afford to retire and have the discretionary funds for a 2022 KTM 1290 Super Duke GT.

Can you say tasty?!