Tracer 9 IMU - Did anyone test the ABS while cornering?

[petshark]

During a course I did last year we practised braking while cornering and most of the other riders had GS's. The newer models had ABS Pro and they could do full panic stops at lean angle. I was impressed, it just worked.

Most rides I do a few panic brake simulations. I go up to 100km/h and (after a quick rear view mirror check) try to brake as efficiently as possible. Recent studies show that letting the ABS do its thing is always fastest. I'm not so convinced about that but I do practise it so I am very comfortable with the feel of the ABS. I also practise squeezing just right to try and just miss the ABS trigger and do small stoppies.

Anyway, the IMU is one of the main reasons that could make me upgrade to the Tracer 9. 

Has anyone tried triggering the ABS in a corner? Is it as good as BMW's? I'm guessing it's probably the same Bosch controller, right?

[texscottyd]

15 hours ago, petshark said:

Has anyone tried triggering the ABS in a corner?

This is where almost 50 years of riding has deeply encoded itself into my brain.  I literally get anxious just reading that sentence… 😳

I’m sure the technology is amazing, but I’m terrified by the concept of actually using it. 

[2NDCHILDHOOD]

Thankfully I have not been in a situation where the cornering ABS has kicked in and I have absolutely no desire to try to make it engage. The only way that is getting tested is if the only option left is to grab a handful of brake in a split second of panic. That being said, I have aggressively accelerated  at the apex of a turn and had the rear wheel loose traction. Before I reacted the slide control engaged in a split second and got the rubber glued back to the road. I stayed on the throttle and powered out of the turn without my boys trying to climb up into my gut. I am pretty sure the ABS would work just fine.

[betoney]

3 hours ago, petshark said:

 The newer models had ABS Pro and they could do full panic stops at lean angle. I was impressed, it just worked.

Ok, now I’m curious… how did they come to a full stop… in a corner… leaned over… and not fall over?  🤷🏻‍♂️

[Eventhorizon]

1 hour ago, texscottyd said:

This is where almost 50 years of riding has deeply encoded itself into my brain.  I literally get anxious just reading that sentence… 😳

I’m sure the technology is amazing, but I’m terrified by the concept as actually using it. 

Yea I feel the same way that its just something you don't do, it sets off alarms in my brain. I have braked and pretty hard at times in corners with out cornering ABS, I know it can be done, I just dont want to be the first to take it right to the limit.

[BBB]

That must be some pretty trick ABS system, as rapid deceleration and the change in gyroscopic forces normally makes the bike stand up if you brake whilst leaning over. Trail braking works well, but rapid braking in corners is definitely something I try to avoid, by matching speed to how far you can see. 

[petshark]

7 hours ago, betoney said:

Ok, now I’m curious… how did they come to a full stop… in a corner… leaned over… and not fall over?  🤷🏻‍♂️

Here's an old video from when they first introduced it on the S1000XR:

 

I completely understand the reactions from all of you who have been riding a long time. I'm sure that I would be in your camp if it wasn't for the fact that I only started my motorcycle journey 10 years ago and have always leaned heavily on the tools at hand. I should probably never ride a bike without ABS because of that. Even though I never trigger the ABS accidentally, I just don't have that healthy fear of using the front brake at lean so I need the tool to be there.

The same discussion exists about trail braking. It's also a tool that I use, practise and think of as something extremely useful and safe but it is met with a lot of scepticism by veteran riders.

When I met this seasoned Swiss biker (on a Gixxer) in the Alps he was giving me tips on how to hang off the bike like a MotoGP rider. He told me that he spent countless hours analysing what they were doing frame-by-frame. I proceeded to follow him through a pass and he gave me a lesson by example (don't get the wrong idea... I'm not that good ;-) ). But when that same conversation touched on trail braking he said that he doesn't ever dare to touch the front brake while cornering. It's obviously preferable not to low-side in the Alps but isn't it amazing that someone goes so deep in cutting edge cornering while completely blocking out an equally important technique? Without trail braking MotoGP would be a completely different game. There's a theory floating about on the net that it's only useful on the racetrack but I completely disagree with that but that is another topic. 

Another anecdote: I did an advanced riding course where one guy (again on a GS) exclaimed that he never touches the front brake at all. He was taught by an instructor that the front brake is dangerous and should never be used... just a few years ago!! 

I'm sure that in the near future most new riders won't even know that it was ever dangerous to brake in a corner. IMO technology has overcome that problem but just like with regular ABS it will take some time/generations to adapt it it.

So in short I completely understand the healthy reluctance to try this out but I am a big proponent of practising panic-braking and feeling the ABS work often. If I ever get a bike with an IMU I will certainly add cornering panic-stops to my routine. I feel so much safer and in control that's just me.

[whisperquiet]

I’ll take a hard pass on trying out cornering ABS just to see if it works.  Trail braking is quite a bit more subtle in my mind and I use it when riding.  My first motorcycle with ABS was a 2003 Honda ST1300……I just could not force myself to practice stops with such intensity to activate ABS on a big, heavy bike.  I have improved my skills with ABS and activate it all the time on my current three Yamahas at low speed mainly to keep the ABS module working.  I am an old dog who learns new tricks SLOWLY.

Edited May 2, 2022 by whisperquiet

[peteinpa]

This is my first bike with ABS, my previous ST1300 didn't have it.

It took me a while to try it but had to. Started with rear only, engaged ABS on my lawn. Then tried front only.  Can now do both at same time. Do it on anti skid (ironically) this spring.

Adding leaning to the mix...Not going to happen. Only way to test that system would be a low traction surface while leaned over hard.  Just those 2 together is a crash no electronics can stop already.

Can't do it.

[petshark]

23 minutes ago, peteinpa said:

Only way to test that system would be a low traction surface while leaned over hard.  Just those 2 together is a crash no electronics can stop already.

That is true but "low traction and leaned over hard" is just a hair away from a crash even without braking. I have no dirt bike experience and would never try the ABS on purpose in those circumstances. 

All I can say is that the course was given by a motorcycle cop (also on a GS) and he first demonstrated it with and without the Pro ABS on. He then told everyone with the newer GS's "you have it easy, you can just grab the front brake in the corner". They did and it just works just like in that video I posted above. Obviously you need reasonable traction but apart from that there is nothing to it... on a GS.

I'm just wondering if the Tracer 9 will be just as docile.

[texscottyd]

4 hours ago, petshark said:

I just don't have that healthy fear of using the front brake at lean so I need the tool to be there.

Actually, that's not my fear...  I use the front brake extensively while I'm leaned over in a corner.   It's the idea of just grabbing a fistful of lever while leaned over (and trusting the electronics to save me from myself) that I have a hard time accepting.   

I firmly believe that EVERY rider needs to know how to use the brakes in a corner, and I'm glad it's taught in most advanced rider courses.  Balancing the finite available traction between cornering and braking is one of those skills you have to develop if you're going to survive for extended periods on the street, especially if you're of the more 'sporting' persuasion.  

15+ years of road racing really drilled it into my head, and even thought I'm way more conservative on the street, the mechanics of trail braking into the apex (or even subtly feathering in a touch of brakes with the throttle open to adjust mid-corner line or speed) works exactly the same way.  It's a necessary skill, and while I think the IMU-based cornering ABS systems are an amazing safety net, I'm still not to the point of intentionally triggering it to see what happens.  

-Scott

[petshark]

Another great exercise was riding through gravel and blipping the throttle to get a feel for the traction control. The way I see it our machine reacts to circumstances and we react to that reaction wether we want to or not. I prefer to train myself to not be surprised by the rider aids kicking in. 

This all started when I almost had a high-side because of some sand in a corner. When the traction control tried to save me I grabbed the front brake in sheer panic. I kept it upright somehow but vowed to train myself not to be surprised again. This post is the result of what I learned during those trainings.

In another course we were asked to accelerate to 120 km/h (they used a speed gun to make sure we did) and just use maximum brake force front and lightly drag the rear for stability. I easily "won" that segment because I have no fear of the ABS and just did as I was asked while all other riders in that course were too careful. The instructor was well in his 60s and asked someone to sit on the back of his K1600 and did the same thing 2-up. It's amazing to see from the side how long the brake distance was even with ABS. During the theory part of the course they showed statistics of new German studies from which the conclusion was that here in Europe they will stop teaching to swerve or find an exit and accelerate. Just braking as hard as possible is statistically the best chance of survival. I took that with a grain of salt and think that the better you are trained the better chance you will have of making the right decision but for novice riders I can believe this to be true. They said it's useless to train swerving because in a blind panic you won't do it...

I really don't want to make this an "You should all be doing this" thread so please tell me to shut up when I am repeating myself. It's just that I really believe that getting to know these rider aids can save a lot more lives when we are not surprised by them in that worst of situations.

[petshark]

2 minutes ago, texscottyd said:

15+ years of road racing really drilled it into my head, and even thought I'm way more conservative on the street, the mechanics of trail braking into the apex (or even subtly feathering in a touch of brakes with the throttle open to adjust mid-corner line or speed) works exactly the same way.  It's a necessary skill, and while I think the IMU-based cornering ABS systems are an amazing safety net, I'm still not to the point of intentionally triggering it to see what happens.  

I'm still a novice trail braker but I do try to use it as you describe. The way I see it trail braking is kind of the opposite of what is being discussed here. Amongst other things it protects us from upsetting the suspension by suddenly applying the brakes at lean. It allows to add a little more brake when needed to correct the line. But I am just learning and have no track racing experience so I shouldn't presume to give any advice about this. 

To the other point, I just don't see the difference between trusting ABS in a straight line versus in a corner. Before ABS was introduced on bikes grabbing too much front brake at high speed would almost always result in a crash so I think the discussion was probably much the same back then. People wouldn't try it as the fear was too ingrained. These days most will dare to trigger the ABS in a straight line because it has proved itself over time while this new IMU ABS still is kind of new.

To see it in action is probably the best way to start trusting it. There are no skills required. Lean, brake, stop. It just works. 

[KrustyKush]

One morning in 1993 I was riding my 92 Concours to work on a wet Texas back road in the dark. Approaching a 90-degree turn my brain farted, concluded my entry speed was too high. My I’ll-trained right hand grabbed what seemed like reasonably light pressure on the lever, but the road was too slimy wet for even that. While still upright, or even IN the turn, the front locked up and I crashed in heavy traffic, breaking the bike, a collarbone and a rib. It happened lightning fast. Anyone who has locked a front wheel on wet surface knows how fast the crash happens and how catastrophic it is.

Yeah, I’m all in on electronic aids, but I won’t test them. I just hope they work when that panic moment comes. And it will. 

[peteinpa]

Back in the early 80's on my 83 650 Nighthawk,  I'd purposely lock my front tire for about a second at hiway speed just for the loud howl. The looks I'd get.