Tracer GT Fuel Range and RotopaX Options

[keithu]

2 hours ago, nhchris said:

Hey guys,  just curious:

Are these aux fuel solutions "crash worthy?

Being surrounded by a few liters of 93 octane during a low side or other motorcycle misadventure might be a problem if a container was breached or leaked.

Or am I just a nervous Nellie ?

No, it's a reasonable concern. Everyone focuses on the flammability, but the weight must also be considered. If it's bungeed to the seat behind you and you hit something, you now have a pretty solid heavy object slamming into your back. Then if it ruptures you'll be doused in what fire professionals call an "accelerant." 

I'm a big fan of Rok straps, but I strongly recommend against them or any other stretchy thing to secure fuel containers. They should be secured with multiple non-bungee straps. Then grab the fuel container and shake it. It should be like part of the bike, just like the main tank. 

That's one of the safety tests performed on aux fuel cells at the Iron Butt Rally and similar events: The tech inspector grabs your fuel cell and shakes it vigorously. If there's any free play at all, that's a fail. Even if you're not riding in the IBR, it's a sound safety principle for any aux fuel you carry. 

[Wintersdark]

8 minutes ago, keithu said:

No, it's a reasonable concern. Everyone focuses on the flammability, but the weight must also be considered. If it's bungeed to the seat behind you and you hit something, you now have a pretty solid heavy object slamming into your back. Then if it ruptures you'll be doused in what fire professionals call an "accelerant." 

I'm a big fan of Rok straps, but I strongly recommend against them or any other stretchy thing to secure fuel containers. They should be secured with multiple non-bungee straps. Then grab the fuel container and shake it. It should be like part of the bike, just like the main tank. 

That's one of the safety tests performed on aux fuel cells at the Iron Butt Rally and similar events: The tech inspector grabs your fuel cell and shakes it vigorously. If there's any free play at all, that's a fail. Even if you're not riding in the IBR, it's a sound safety principle for any aux fuel you carry. 

Particularly for your sort of setup; that's a big, heavy fuel cell, and doubly so if it's not full because unless you've got internal baffles in there the fuel sloshing around could be a bit weird.  That's not really a problem for say a Rotopax though, as it'll either be completely full or empty after you pour it into your tank.  

Packing a couple bottles is a lot different, though; adding a half gallon in two bottles isn't going to significantly impact handling; it'd be like tossing a couple water bottles in your hardcases; not going to get anywhere close to packing a pillion.

Still, yeah, I wouldn't use stretchy straps to secure a larger cell like a Rotopax.  You don't want heavy stuff shifting about.  I've always got both nets and bungies, and also straight cam straps for that reason - stretchy straps are great for random stuff, but you want to be able to solidly secure anything with weight. 

[keithu]

Fair point. A one gallon Rotopack is probably 10lbs / 4.5kg when full, so not massively heavy. Smaller bottles like the MSRs are even smaller, but you still don't want them to become projectiles in a crash so they should be inside a saddlebag or otherwise very secure. 

[Ride365]

21 hours ago, keithu said:

Many variables, of course. The FJ/Tracer seems to be more sensitive than most to wind conditions. So if you mount a larger windshield and/or routinely ride at speed above 100kph you should expect to see poor fuel economy. I have a 26" Madstad barndoor windshield on my FJ-09 and I seem to average around 39-41mpg US, which I think is below average. So for me that would mean a max range of 192 miles / 311km, but realistically stopping for fuel around 150 miles / 240km. Fine for most people, I suppose, but if you plan to ride in areas with sketchy fuel availability it's not optimal. 

My solution was to go Full Retard and mount a 3.25 gallon aux fuel system plumbed directly into the main tank:

What case/rack system is that for the panniers.....me likey that a lot!!

[nhchris]

4 hours ago, peteinpa said:

Well...Disregard the 4+ gallons in your crotch.🤣

So you don’t think motorcycle gas tanks and fill caps are designed and tested to be crashworthy?  I actually don’t know if NTSB has a standard.

To debunk that myth about spilled fuel not igniting watch Guy Martin’s epic crash at the Isle of Man. Start watching at 6:30 in.

Edited March 9, 2021 by nhchris

[keithu]

52 minutes ago, Ride365 said:

What case/rack system is that for the panniers.....me likey that a lot!!

The side cases and rack are Hepco Becker. I bought them because at the time they were just about all that was available, but I don't recommend them. The lid seal is not a good design and they're only about 90% waterproof. I think you'd be better off with Givi, Shad, or FJR bags. 

The fuel cell rack is of my own design. There's a write-up about it in the "FJR-09" thread in the Build Projects forum. 

[kingfisher]

Two full size Rok straps under tension hold that one gallon rotopak very tightly; they are not flimsy “stretchy straps.”  Solid straps that do not stretch tend to loosen. I’ve used the set up on 6 long trips so far of over 3,000 miles each. Works for me. 

[PhotoAl]

I've seen lots and lots of race bike crashes.  Very rarely a fuel leak and a fire is quite rare but they do happen.  Number of years ago saw a Ducati burn because the carbon fiber gas tank had a hole scraped in it after it slid following a high side.  Rider was uninjured and well away when it caught fire.  Steel is better than plastic but my one concern of the RotoPax is it scraping on the pavement during a slide.  Balancing the concern is the fact that when riding with a full fuel container it most likely will be a remote area with less traffic - but maybe more animals.  I would tend to leave home with a empty and dry container and fill it when approaching remote areas.

[Wintersdark]

5 hours ago, nhchris said:

So you don’t think motorcycle gas tanks and fill caps are designed and tested to be crashworthy?  I actually don’t know if NTSB has a standard.

To debunk that myth about spilled fuel not igniting watch Guy Martin’s epic crash at the Isle of Man. Start watching at 6:30 in.

Of course gas tanks and fill caps are designed and tested to be crashworthy.  So are fuel bottles and rotopax fuel cells.  But crashes are crashes, of course.  I've personally had a steel fuel tank fail in a crash (ruptured seam), though, and dump gas everywhere.  

Spilled fuel not igniting: I didn't say it couldn't, just that it's not as easy to ignite as people think - and higher octane gas is actually *harder* to ignite than lower as that's the whole point, it prevents knock via premature ignition from heat and pressure.  

Anecdotally, I've been in 4 major motorbike crashes, all four involved spilled fuel (all gas tanks will spill fuel when full and laid on their sides, through the venting if nothing else), and none of them ignited.  I've seen countless youtube videos of crashes, as well as motogp crashes, and while fires do happen, they're extremely rare.

I'd way WAY more concerned, honestly, about a fuel bottle becoming a missile during a crash (a'la @keithu's comments above) because it'd be a couple points of steel bottle flying at speed than about it leaking, that leak getting on me in sufficient volume to matter, AND that leak fuel igniting. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Wintersdark

[PhotoAl]

A few years ago after adjusting the valves on my CBR600RR I had put the clip-ons back to stock in anticipation of selling.  Took it out for a test spin, focused on brakes and how they worked came to a stop and neglected to downshift - mental error! Started from stop asking right turn, bike started then abruptly stalled.  Fell over before I knew what was happening!  I was clear and looked at bike and saw a cloud of steam!  Thought how did I break a coolant line!  Picked the bike up quickly, then realized it was not coolant but gasoline that made the cloud of steam!  It left a 6 to 8 inch dia wet spot on the pavement.  I checked it carefully, gave it a few minutes for the spilled fuel to evaporate then restarted and rode it home.  Vent line on tank was disconnected!  It was a very tight fit when reconnecting after lifting the tank and obviously I had not gotten it on well enough.  I made extra sure it was connected by the book and never had a problem with it afterwards.  Still amazing the bike did not catch fire.

[ReSTored]

Was hoping for someone who had installed a RotopaX mount for a gallon container to post a few pictures of the install.  I have a top box and the stock saddlebags so a rear rack mount or something attached to the double shell saddlebag itself is probably not going to work.

I'm going to make a cardboard box the same size as a RotopaX and see what clearance issues exist off the left passenger / saddlebag bracket and if it interferes with my leg. If it doesn't work using Rok straps to tie the container to the passenger saddle would probably work for me.  I really don't have any concerns about the weight of it or fire in an accident as after the incident me, the bike and anything that flew of the bike are going to be scattering on the highway. Fire is the least of my concerns in that event. 

[Wintersdark]

10 hours ago, PhotoAl said:

A few years ago after adjusting the valves on my CBR600RR I had put the clip-ons back to stock in anticipation of selling.  Took it out for a test spin, focused on brakes and how they worked came to a stop and neglected to downshift - mental error! Started from stop asking right turn, bike started then abruptly stalled.  Fell over before I knew what was happening!  I was clear and looked at bike and saw a cloud of steam!  Thought how did I break a coolant line!  Picked the bike up quickly, then realized it was not coolant but gasoline that made the cloud of steam!  It left a 6 to 8 inch dia wet spot on the pavement.  I checked it carefully, gave it a few minutes for the spilled fuel to evaporate then restarted and rode it home.  Vent line on tank was disconnected!  It was a very tight fit when reconnecting after lifting the tank and obviously I had not gotten it on well enough.  I made extra sure it was connected by the book and never had a problem with it afterwards.  Still amazing the bike did not catch fire.

Guy I ride with has an old (and prior to him, pretty badly treated) GSXR750.  Had a fuel connection (under pressure) fall off at highway speed.  Ended up spraying fuel all over the engine and him, continuously spraying fuel while the pump was active.  No ignition, but definitely a terrifying (and just generally gross) thing to have happen.