Headlight Assembly problem! Help!!

[skipperT]

1 hour ago, dazzler24 said:

If it ends up being the ECU I believe that reprogramming can only be done via an authorised Yamaha dealer - Skip?

Not 100% sure, may depend on the system used in your/his home area. Our tracer/FJ/MT models don’t have a red key: standard ignition switches. 

need more info on that one…  I can post the sequence for sport bikes, if interested. Someone must have a service manual in @cantin ‘s home area, it should outline it in there. 
-S

Edited January 31, 2022 by skipperT

[dazzler24]

1 hour ago, knyte said:

That...

...was some pretty amazing troubleshooting!!

Great team work I reckon 😁.  That's what I love about this forum.  Plenty of people wanting to help and no egos getting in the way.

Great stuff 🙂

[2and3cylinders]

FYI, when I was working with Andy Gandhi of Kisan Electronics when we developed a headlight modulator for Yamaha LED headlight equipped bikes, to develop a plug n play install we evaluated the wiring into the HCM (LCN).

I also bought a crashed FJ headlight assembly and took it apart (using a hot air gun on the hot glue) just to see what was what.

The following photos are for your edification...

https://kisantech.com/p115w-h3-fj04.html

[cantin]

16 hours ago, skipperT said:

What do you mean by digital tag? Can you snap a picture of it? I’m not familiar with that type of immobilizer set up… someone from your country may need to chime in, or you may need to contact the dealer for info. 

In Canada, no special tool required that I’m aware of, except that red key. There’s a specific sequence of key cycles on/off with the red key which puts the ECM into “learn” mode. The other keys are then “taught” to the ECM/immobilizer unit by inserting them and waiting until they are recognized. 

the process is laid out in the service manual for (say) R6/R1 and FJR1300, and super tens( I think?). Don’t recall if the R7 has it or not (probably). I think the cruiser models (venture?) use a different type of Fob system that I’m not familiar with….

-Skip

well this is the little tag, I imagine it shows the corresponding code or so? 

But I also have the coveted red key. It seems from the Manual that even with the immobilizer I can still just reteach it eh? 

16 hours ago, skipperT said:

 

[cantin]

2 hours ago, cantin said:

But I also have the coveted red key. It seems from the Manual that even with the immobilizer I can still just reteach it eh? 

 

Update: ecu is out.
From pin 19, I measured continuity to yellow and yellow/black at 6 pin (yellow/black: with high beam selected)
that means I shall try and find a second hand ecu to confirm the diagnosis.

Unless some on the forum has a 15'16' ecu just lying around of course

*** interestingly. My bike is a 2015 that is stated on the registration, but the ECU I took out has the number 2SC-8591A-10

From looking around it seems that this is the ecu number from a Tracer 2016. The plot thickens.***
I guess my question becomes. What can cause this headlight circuit to fail? Is it simply a production problem? Or is there a risk of buying a working one, and then pop goes another ecu? 

The bike does have some extras added to it as well. A Quickshifter and auxillary fog lights from SW Motec, When I checked wiring for fog lights it seems pretty okay. It looks like it is just plugged into one of the aux attachments behind the dash. There is also a switch on the dash.
My questions further are, these shouldn't be causing the headlight malfunction right? because they are on other circuits?******

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by cantin

[2and3cylinders]

Maybe your local dealer has a used one or one of the edu flash guys like Vcyclenut will loan you one before you buy it.

[duckie]

Just throwing this out there……..food for thought…..

The hcu doesnt care where the source for headlight control comes from. It just wants to see the proper control input.  
 

A option, and this is just a thought, find another source for the hcu contol input. For the example….if the hcu control input is 12 vdc….just find another 12vdc source to use and use a switch to control that source. This could be a temporary fix until you get a know good ecu. You would just have to remember  to use the switch.

This would require cutting the y/b….but if done right, going back to orginal wiring wont be hard.
 
FWIW……

 

[cantin]

3 hours ago, duckie said:

Just throwing this out there……..food for thought…..

The hcu doesnt care where the source for headlight control comes from. It just wants to see the proper control input.  
 

A option, and this is just a thought, find another source for the hcu contol input. For the example….if the hcu control input is 12 vdc….just find another 12vdc source to use and use a switch to control that source. This could be a temporary fix until you get a know good ecu. You would just have to remember  to use the switch.

This would require cutting the y/b….but if done right, going back to orginal wiring wont be hard.
 
FWIW……

 

Isn't it the problem not that it isn't getting 12 volts, rather that it isn't getting any ground via yellow or yellow black? Yellow black is not just 12v it is a controlling wire I think. 12v and current comes from green I think. 

But to be honest I don't mind having the bike out of commission while I repair it fully. 

[skipperT]

On 2/1/2022 at 7:10 AM, cantin said:

But I also have the coveted red key. It seems from the Manual that even with the immobilizer I can still just reteach it eh? 

 

Right, so the key tag is just your key number so that a locksmith might be able to cut a key more easily... and also needed depending on the blank.

Yes, based on that screenshot you attached... If you look closely at the bottom of that picture I think that's where they began to give the instructions for re-training the Imm. and ECM brains.
-S

[skipperT]

On 2/1/2022 at 8:37 AM, cantin said:

Update: ecu is out.
From pin 19, I measured continuity to yellow and yellow/black at 6 pin (yellow/black: with high beam selected)
that means I shall try and find a second hand ecu to confirm the diagnosis.

Unless some on the forum has a 15'16' ecu just lying around of course

*** interestingly. My bike is a 2015 that is stated on the registration, but the ECU I took out has the number 2SC-8591A-10

From looking around it seems that this is the ecu number from a Tracer 2016. The plot thickens.***
I guess my question becomes. What can cause this headlight circuit to fail? Is it simply a production problem? Or is there a risk of buying a working one, and then pop goes another ecu? 

The bike does have some extras added to it as well. A Quickshifter and auxillary fog lights from SW Motec, When I checked wiring for fog lights it seems pretty okay. It looks like it is just plugged into one of the aux attachments behind the dash. There is also a switch on the dash.
My questions further are, these shouldn't be causing the headlight malfunction right? because they are on other circuits?******

 

This is a great question.  And one that I have been answering since (I think) people around here started asking "how can I get my passing lamps to come on with my headlights?". And I keep telling anyone that posts that question to NOT TAP INTO ANY OF THE HEADLAMP WIRING when installing passing lamps! Because this is the worst case scenerio of what can happen if its not done correctly!  Yours is the 3rd ECM that I'm aware of on these forums to (potentially) have a blown driver circuit inside the ECM for activating the headlights.

Anyway (off my soapbox...) it IS possible that your ECM got blown due to the wiring of the Previous Owners passing lamp setup. It is also possible that he changed it after the first ECM had the driver circuit blown, then it was changed with an ECM from a 16 model and then THAT ECM blew it's driver circuit because the wiring was never corrected. OR... It's possible that the ECM was replaced with an ECM from a 16 model that was purchased used and the headlight circuit was already blown but he needed a replacement because he wanted a stock flash and he kept/sold the flashed ECM,  OR... (insert another possibility here...)

Anyway, check the wiring for the passing lamps and make sure nothing is connected to the LH headlight switch wiring someplace. Same for the harness above where that 6P and 4P connector come from. Better yet, following all the wiring from the passing lamp relay to and from the switch to make sure nothings amiss.

At least, that's how I would proceed. YMMV,

-Skip

(phew)

[skipperT]

11 hours ago, cantin said:

Isn't it the problem not that it isn't getting 12 volts, rather that it isn't getting any ground via yellow or yellow black? Yellow black is not just 12v it is a controlling wire I think. 12v and current comes from green I think. 

But to be honest I don't mind having the bike out of commission while I repair it fully. 

Yes, that's what we have currently figured out. It's missing a Ground signal from the ECM on the Y/Bk wire. The LH Headlight switch controls whether ground is available on the Y wire based on Hi beam being selected, or the Pass function being selected.

Duckie's idea would work, you'd have to introduce a ground source just as you did while testing, @cantin and wire a toggle switch to break that ground and switch the light off (unless power goes bye-bye on the Green leads when main switch is off, which it probably does). Yamaha (and other manufacturers) get away with using smaller batteries on their product by installing relays that don't allow power to all circuits until the engine is running... so that's why a switch would be necessary inline on the ground wire jump - to preserve that function.

-S

[dazzler24]

This possible headlamp wiring tapping with auxilliary lights is an interesting development along with a different ECU from original installed.... hmmm

Following with interest as the mystery deepens -  or is it ...as the fog clears maybe?.

[cantin]

15 hours ago, skipperT said:

This is a great question.  And one that I have been answering since (I think) people around here started asking "how can I get my passing lamps to come on with my headlights?". And I keep telling anyone that posts that question to NOT TAP INTO ANY OF THE HEADLAMP WIRING when installing passing lamps! Because this is the worst case scenerio of what can happen if its not done correctly!  Yours is the 3rd ECM that I'm aware of on these forums to (potentially) have a blown driver circuit inside the ECM for activating the headlights.

Anyway (off my soapbox...) it IS possible that your ECM got blown due to the wiring of the Previous Owners passing lamp setup. It is also possible that he changed it after the first ECM had the driver circuit blown, then it was changed with an ECM from a 16 model and then THAT ECM blew it's driver circuit because the wiring was never corrected. OR... It's possible that the ECM was replaced with an ECM from a 16 model that was purchased used and the headlight circuit was already blown but he needed a replacement because he wanted a stock flash and he kept/sold the flashed ECM,  OR... (insert another possibility here...)

Anyway, check the wiring for the passing lamps and make sure nothing is connected to the LH headlight switch wiring someplace. Same for the harness above where that 6P and 4P connector come from. Better yet, following all the wiring from the passing lamp relay to and from the switch to make sure nothings amiss.

At least, that's how I would proceed. YMMV,

-Skip

(phew)

So we have here my dusty horse all taken apart. Sw motec fog lights are wired into the harness under the dash. They work just fine with the switch on the handle bar, of course only if main switch is on. 


This can be seen in the image below. I assume this is an okay place to pull energy. It then goes to a switch on the handle bar.


The wiring for it first runs to the switch on the handle bar and then 2 outputs one to each of the two the lights. 

With this source of power, it shouldn't have anything todo with pin 19 right? or is there some sort of overlap maybe inside that ecu that could be the problem? Just double checking. 

Also discovered a aftermarket Quickshifter........ Which I didn't really realize the bike had, as I bought the bike in France and admittedly my French is not so great. 
But anyway... I dont think this should also have anything todo with headlight. It looks like the Quickshifter is wired in off of the battery.. 

Any know if there could be a connection between this and headlight? or is it maybe as skip suggested that the owner before wanted to keep a flashed ecu situation?

 

[skipperT]

Nice pics. If the ONLY wires coming from the switch go to that plug under the windscreen in your pic and to the 2 lights, then I think all is ok. If it were me, I’d find the relay and trace the wires coming to and from it to be safest. 

quickshifter should be fine, IMHO. 
-S

[dazzler24]

Not adding anything other than to mainly echo the skipper's thought/suggestions.

Considering that the previous owner was a tinkerer, it might also be a good idea to check for any 'foreign' connections that don't look like they belong as part of the OEM harness as well to rule that out as a potential source for problems.

Otherwise it sounds like you are getting closer to having to buy a new (or 2nd hand) ECU.

Following with interest...