Valve clearance check (timing of) in the real world.

[dazzler24]

There are several threads and much discussion around valve checks that reveal that the exhaust valves are (usually/often) on the tight side at first check.

My question is - what is the general consensus from those that have gone before and, given the 'concerns' around these tight valves, of what really is a recommended milage to do the first and subsequent checks?

e.g. Is 20K kms (12.5K miles) too early?  30K kms (18.5K miles)?  Leave it to the recommended 40K kms?  Other?

Thoughts/opinions from the wise - been there done that - aficionados would be appreciated.

[2and3cylinders]

Daz,

I hope you've dried out a bit...

All I can do is provide you with my experience from my 4* valve lash checks.

First at about 21,000 miles:  All intake & exhaust were tight; very tight.  Almost as if they screwed up at the factory.  Could have stood a check adjust in half the mileage, or less!  *Had to go back in shortly after to double check after 150 miles because felt I had installed the exhaust cam off one tooth.  I in fact had.  Grrrrr... At least it's good to know doing so does not cause a catastrophic failure.

I made my Second true check at about 35,000 miles and all were within spec.

Just finished my third lash check 51,600 miles and ended up changing 3 exhaust shims.  They were tight .10 mm, or 1/3 max spec, which is a tighter tolerance than the intakes.

If I was to offer a recommendation, (in proper US miles) do the first check within 12k, second and on every 15~18k max.  If you're in there anyway to change spark plugs (which can be done by just removing the 2 top bolts and slip off the bottom peg the radiator and tipping it down and forward out of the way after just disconnecting the fan power and overflow hose) and to check-adjust throttle body sync, you might as well go the small extra step and check the valves.  BTW, getting rid of the AIS bits and installing block off covers makes all this work a fair bit easier.  Of course an ECU flash that includes disabling the AIS is also beneficial.

Even though the CP3 does not have that high of a compression ratio, it does rev high, quick and hard often with no knock sensor to regard ignition timing.  The well documented issues with the OEM automatic cam chain tensioner and three associated Yamaha TSB are testament to this issue that has a direct effect on cam chain and valve operation.  After the first dealer installed TSB ACCT started to rattle within a few thousand miles, I bought and installed an APE manual CCT, as I put in my VTR1000F, and have a moderatly high level of confidence in them.  As the one in my FJ is now going on 30k and the pair in my Superhawk / Firestorm +75k.

Your units needs may very but why risk waiting.  It'll give you the opportunity to become more intimate with your FJ/Tracer; always a good thing.

[betoney]

5 hours ago, dazzler24 said:

given the 'concerns' around these tight valves, of what really is a recommended milage to do the first and subsequent checks?

 

2 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

If I was to offer a recommendation, (in proper US miles) do the first check within 12k, second and on every 15~18k max

As usual, Bret offers great advice based on first hand experience.  I will echo his recommendation of checking earlier than what the service manual suggests.  I had my first one done a few thousand miles earlier than recommended and all of the exhaust valves were tight, I think most owners report the same thing for the first check.  As suggested, subsequent checks every 15-18k miles isn't a bad idea, the mechanic I use suggested every 20k which is still quit a bit more frequent than what Yamaha suggests.

And as previously mentioned, while you have everything apart, change the plugs, flush the coolant and sync the throttle bodies.

[PhotoAl]

I'm at 18,000 miles and about to do the check.  I've got lots of highway miles from long trips so probably less stress than say 18,000 miles of commuting or fun rides.  Still need to do it in the next week or so.  Nice weather tomorrow s will ride but hope to start Saturday.  

[dazzler24]

10 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

Daz,

I hope you've dried out a bit...

Still raining!  Might be a good time to do a valve lash check. 🙄

All I can do is provide you with my experience from my 4* valve lash checks.

First at about 21,000 miles:  All intake & exhaust were tight; very tight.  Almost as if they screwed up at the factory.  Could have stood a check adjust in half the mileage, or less!  *Had to go back in shortly after to double check after 150 miles because felt I had installed the exhaust cam off one tooth.  I in fact had.  Grrrrr... At least it's good to know doing so does not cause a catastrophic failure.

"Very tight" - that's the worry.  The bigger worry, for me, is that if someone like you who would appear to be VERY careful and VERY thorough in all you do can get the timing screwed up, then I fear for what an amateur like me could do!  I do want to accept the challenge and do it myself though and would be very grateful for any and all tips/tricks and advice that could be offered that are supplemental to the service manual (which I have BTW)

I made my Second true check at about 35,000 miles and all were within spec.

Good to know.

Just finished my third lash check 51,600 miles and ended up changing 3 exhaust shims.  They were tight .10 mm, or 1/3 max spec, which is a tighter tolerance than the intakes.

If I was to offer a recommendation, (in proper US miles) do the first check within 12k, second and on every 15~18k max.  If you're in there anyway to change spark plugs (which can be done by just removing the 2 top bolts and slip off the bottom peg the radiator and tipping it down and forward out of the way after just disconnecting the fan power and overflow hose) and to check-adjust throttle body sync, you might as well go the small extra step and check the valves.  BTW, getting rid of the AIS bits and installing block off covers makes all this work a fair bit easier.  Of course an ECU flash that includes disabling the AIS is also beneficial.

Thanks for the advice re your recommended milage checks.  I'm getting that same feeling the more I read on the subject.

Now the matter of the AIS... I still have mine and wonder if I need to get rid of it or not.  I had the ECU flashed while I still had the OEM pipe fitted and left AIS ON (CAT fitted).  I've now got an ARROW straight pipe (no CAT) and I don't get any excessive popping on decel - just to set the scene.

Do I/should I get the ECU reflashed to turn AIS OFF and fit block off plates OR fit block off plates and not worry about the ECU reflash OR ....other?  Does it matter in the scheme of things other than some small benefit in removing some extra plumbing given that I'm not getting any (bad) popping/flames from my exhaust??

Even though the CP3 does not have that high of a compression ratio, it does rev high, quick and hard often with no knock sensor to regard ignition timing.  The well documented issues with the OEM automatic cam chain tensioner and three associated Yamaha TSB are testament to this issue that has a direct effect on cam chain and valve operation.  After the first dealer installed TSB ACCT started to rattle within a few thousand miles, I bought and installed an APE manual CCT, as I put in my VTR1000F, and have a moderatly high level of confidence in them.  As the one in my FJ is now going on 30k and the pair in my Superhawk / Firestorm +75k.

I have a manual CCT fitted.

Your units needs may very but why risk waiting.  It'll give you the opportunity to become more intimate with your FJ/Tracer; always a good thing.

Agreed, but makes me a little nervous given the implications of getting this job wrong.  But it would seem that the experts at the garage can get it wrong too (by some reports) and they charge money to stuff it up - I can do that for free!

Please expand the quote for my comments/responses.

[2and3cylinders]

Working 💪 today so will respond with tips later, or

It'd be easier and more fun to Skype or Zoom!

Though others then couldn't benefit unless they joined us .

Interesting idea, no?

And Betoney (forgot your first name), one only needs to remove the right rad shroud to change the coolant, and tip the rad to change the plugs (but that's easier with the AIS plumbing gone).

[betoney]

7 minutes ago, 2and3cylinders said:

Betoney (forgot your first name), one only needs to remove the right rad shroud to change the coolant, and tip the rad to change the plugs (but that's easier with the AIS plumbing gone).

My first name is Brian.  I only mentioned the other maintenance as a matter of efficiency.  If you already have it torn apart every 18-20k miles, might as well change the plugs, sync the TB/s, change the coolant and service the air filter at the same time. 👍

[peteinpa]

I haven't done the check yet, (8k miles) But I will set the timing per the manual for removal. Then paint marks on the chain, cam gears, and crank gear.  When you go back together if they all line up again it will be good.

[piotrek]

1 hour ago, dazzler24 said:

Do I/should I get the ECU reflashed to turn AIS OFF and fit block off plates OR fit block off plates and not worry about the ECU reflash OR ....other?  Does it matter in the scheme of things other than some small benefit in removing some extra plumbing given that I'm not getting any (bad) popping/flames from my exhaust??

No need to flash just to disable AIS. Block-off plates will do... but only really if you have excessive popping or to remove AIS plumbing. This is a performance-neutral mod.

[2and3cylinders]

9 hours ago, betoney said:

 

As usual, Bret offers great advice based on first hand experience.  I will echo his recommendation of checking earlier than what the service manual suggests.  I had my first one done a few thousand miles earlier than recommended and all of the exhaust valves were tight, I think most owners report the same thing for the first check.  As suggested, subsequent checks every 15-18k miles isn't a bad idea, the mechanic I use suggested every 20k which is still quit a bit more frequent than what Yamaha suggests.

And as previously mentioned, while you have everything apart, change the plugs, flush the coolant and sync the throttle bodies.

Oh, and 18k is longer than many manufacturers.  Honda often calls for 16k on lower stressed engines.  The KTM 890 is at 18,300, BMW S1000SX at 6,000! and Triumph Street Triple 765 at 12,000

 

[dazzler24]

4 hours ago, piotrek said:

No need to flash just to disable AIS. Block-off plates will do... but only really if you have excessive popping or to remove AIS plumbing. This is a performance-neutral mod.

Thanks @piotrek.  Yes, from everything I've read about this AIS mod - and you've confirmed it - is that it only really serves two things if you have a non-CAT pipe. 1. If you're getting lots of popping etc on decel then it might be worthwhile to cut that extra air being injected into the pipe and 2. Shave a few lbs off your bikes weight.

I assume (never a good thing) that the ECU flash that can turn off AIS, if it was requested, is only controlling the solenoid in the AIS system and nothing else.  If the ECU is flashed as AIS off then that never actuates the AIS solenoid which permanently shuts off the air anyway and thereby effectively doing what block off plates would do.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I assume (again) that a flash that disables AIS does not also modify how the Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) is measured via the O2 sensor as part of that flash?

That was the only reason why I questioned whether a reflash was required.

[dazzler24]

4 hours ago, peteinpa said:

Then paint marks on the chain, cam gears, and crank gear.  When you go back together if they all line up again it will be good.

And is this advice right here that Pete has provided all you really need to do to ensure your timing is guaranteed to be all good when closing up?  And I ask genuinely as it makes sense to me on the surface of the statement.

But as mentioned, it's a job that you don't want to get wrong by taking any short cuts.  Having said that, if it's a method that works and is foolproof (me being the potential fool) then I'm all for it.

I know about lining up the 125deg BTDC marking and the punch marks on the top of the cams etc to reset the timing but if this method mentioned is all you REALLY need then I'm all for doing it that way!

Any potential pitfalls that you can see @skipperT?

[dazzler24]

5 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

Oh, and 18k is longer than many manufacturers.  Honda often calls for 16k on lower stressed engines.  The KTM 890 is at 18,300, BMW S1000SX at 6,000! and Triumph Street Triple 765 at 12,000

 

And based on those milestones from other manufactures, is it not perhaps good practice for us all (given the tight valve 'issue') to think about perhaps halving the recommended valve check timetable?

Every 20K kms instead of every 40K kms?? (12.5K miles; 25K miles)

6 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

Working 💪 today so will respond with tips later, or

It'd be easier and more fun to Skype or Zoom!

Though others then couldn't benefit unless they joined us .

Interesting idea, no?

And Betoney (forgot your first name), one only needs to remove the right rad shroud to change the coolant, and tip the rad to change the plugs (but that's easier with the AIS plumbing gone).

Thanks Bret.  The Skyping idea is an interesting thought but we'd have to get our timeframes right!  As I type this, it's just gone past midnight and into the AM of Friday in downtown Skokie IL while it's 4PM Friday here in the upside-down part of the world.  Anyway, I think I'd suffer too much from performance anxiety with someone - potentially many! - looking over my shoulder and shouting abuse at my incompetence while my shaking hands drop a valve bucket into the crankcase. 😲🤣

AR glasses - now that would be interesting!

To kick off, what about the following as a very basic valve check only process (short cut method): -

1. Remove fairing, seat, tank and airbox
2. Tilt radiator forward for access
3. Remove AIS plumbing and valve – I still have mine as mentioned.
4. Remove spark plugs
5. Remove cam cover
6. Put marks on cam gears to cam chain JIC of a skip while finding each TDC.
7. Select top gear and turn rear wheel to find TDC for cyl 1 TDC (cam lobes on 1 pointing away from each other)
8. Check clearances for IN/EX on No.1 - note results.
9. Repeat procedure for cylinders 2 & 3
10. If in spec (unlikely), button back up.
11. If not in spec move onto the scary bit - yet to be worked out/confirmed.

Note - 1. Use a straw/screwdriver in each cyclinder's spark plug hole to watch for and confirm TDC in addition to the cam lobe positions.

[2and3cylinders]

For just verifying clearance, yes those steps generally are OK except for turning over CCW with the rear wheel.  That's too imprecise and means moving back and forth inefficiently from upfront where all the action is.  And using a screwdriver is a no-no. Steel inside aluminum vanities can lead to heartache.

For the shim replacement, indexing by just marking chain, cam sprockets and drive cog is insufficient IMO.  Physically preventing skipping a tooth with zip ties around the chain and sprockets IMO is mandatory.  I also remove the right timing cover and chain tension slider I order to provide enough chain slack to enable setting the cams aside stick zip tied to the chain and sprockets enough to remove the cam follower gifts and shims.

And bare in mind that when reinstalling the came without adequate chain slack, valve spring pressure on the cam lobe can make them difficult to align with the marks.  Also, there can be enough slack in the chain between the cams to allow being off a tooth with the index points. And when removing the cams at 125° BTDC the lobes are not symmetrically opposing each other as they are at TDC; hence the spring pressure on the cam lobes.  There is a special tool that is a narrow flat plate with two short perpendicular pins projecting out near one end spaced to engage holes in the cam sprockets to use as a lever to turn and hold the cam in alignment with its index holes and the cam cap index marks.  90° needle nose pliers will work too.  With the CCT slider removed the added slack obviates the need for this tool.

And Skyping or Zooming was only to face to face discuss the foregoing while sipping your choice of beverage while, and also f you desire, burning tobacco, cannibas and / or incense, not to observe and coach in real time you actually doing the deed.  Heavens no!  I would not have either the patience or self control, and not being able to point or smack your hand away is a major detraction. And I'm up at odd hours as I don't sleep much or through the night.  Having a video coffee clutch could be a fun way for the girls to talk amongst ourselves.

That's if we can understand each others spoken English...

[2and3cylinders]

13 hours ago, betoney said:

My first name is Brian.  I only mentioned the other maintenance as a matter of efficiency.  If you already have it torn apart every 18-20k miles, might as well change the plugs, sync the TB/s, change the coolant and service the air filter at the same time. 👍

Brian, I had mentioned doing the valves as one task during a routine "major service".