Front wheel noise

[PhotoAl]

Be careful with the wheel bearings.  If it is a bad bearing it could cause you problems while riding.  Last year on my old bike I had a catastrophic rear wheel bearing failure.  1st indication was during a hard stop at a traffic light the rear seemed unsettled when I was hard on the rear brake (also hard on front).  2 blocks later when stopping to turn left on interstate metallic popping noise when I applied front brake - thought it was a small rock in the front brake pad.  Got on interstate and rode 34 miles at 80MPH (speed limit).  When I go off rolled off throttle and the bike proceeds to make lots of lout metal popping noises and occasionally shuttered!  Fortunately was 1/4 mile from campground I was staying at.  Bearing had disintegrated!  I had just ridden 500 miles that day and 575 miles the day before.  The bike had been services at the dealership 50 miles before I left!  Would have been a lot less fun if had been a front wheel bearing!

Not so hard to pull front wheel and check the bearings.   Seems way early for a bearing to fail though.  I doubt it was something you did that caused a bearing to go bad.  

[petshark]

I have the front wheel off. When turning the bearings with my finger they both turn equally smooth, no grinding sounds. I have the wheel spinning free on the axle between two stands and can hear the same sounds as in my video but a lot more faint. I think the forks and fender amplify the sounds.

Could this sound be 1 grain of sand that you can't feel but only hear?
Or perhaps something very small is in the tyre tumbling around? I did use the iphone microphone to record the sound and it does seem louder near the axle but the way sound travels through metal can be deceiving.

So the bearings seem fine and I'm 99% sure that the dragging of the wheel is unrelated.

That one is even more difficult to troubleshoot.

• I rode the bike just fine in the beginning of the week in the wet. No dragging.
• Hosed it down when I came back. (no jet washer). Dried it off with a leaf blower as I always do, also in the calipers.
• 2 days later installed a new clutch lever (warranty part)
• de-goo'd the tracer (removed branding on tank and fender) using WD40 and isopropyl alcohol. Always sprayed on rag but cleaned the brakes with brake cleaner just in case some got on.
• modded the horn bracket so I could fit the larger Bosch car horn as high as possible so it doesn't hit the fender when the forks compress to the maximum. I does not come into contact with the brake lines.

That's it so I still have no idea what has caused this. This I have already checked:

• The MC is not overfilled.
• I can push the pistons back without a problem on both sides.
• The axle is straight.
• The wheel spins forever so the dragging is not in the bearings.
• The wheel spins normal on the bike until I push the pistons back out.
• The brakes work as normal but the pistons seem to hold pressure which causes the dragging from video 2.
• Disassembly en Reassembly gives the same result.

[peteinpa]

Try removing the after market lever.

I'm not a big believer in them. too easy to mess up a dimension not allowing full retraction of MC piston.

The riding in the wet, did it include road salt? If so remove 1 caliper and carefully extend 1 piston at a time and clean it doing all of them. 

[Your_Boy_Yuriy]

13 minutes ago, peteinpa said:

Try removing the after market lever.

I'm not a big believer in them. too easy to mess up a dimension not allowing full retraction of MC piston.

I'm with Peteinpa, its the simplest thing you can do. 

Also make sure the rotors are straight, if they are warped that might cause the caliper piston to drag. 

lastly, spin the wheel and then crack open the bleeder valve if the drag goes away. Then something is holding pressure in your system. 1). Master cylinder 2). calipers 3). hoses. Are the only three options that I can thing of. 

Yuriy Koval

[petshark]

 

2 hours ago, peteinpa said:

Try removing the after market lever.

I'm not a big believer in them. too easy to mess up a dimension not allowing full retraction of MC piston.

Haven't removed the lever yet as I can see the pin of the lever returning to neutral were it is not pushing on the piston. As the issue is in that position without any pressure from the lever, I don't see how it could influence the pressure. it would be the same with the stock lever or without any lever. I'm getting desperate so might try this after all, just to have tried everything.

2 hours ago, peteinpa said:

The riding in the wet, did it include road salt? If so remove 1 caliper and carefully extend 1 piston at a time and clean it doing all of them.

It's been some time since they last used salt but there is always some around. I've checked the pistons and they were still pretty clean from my last cleaning. I confirmed again that all are moving smoothly.

2 hours ago, Your_Boy_Yuriy said:

Also make sure the rotors are straight, if they are warped that might cause the caliper piston to drag. 

Checked and they are straight. I also checked the alignment of rotor agains brake pad. The dragging is equal anywhere around the circle and also between left and right caliper.

2 hours ago, Your_Boy_Yuriy said:

lastly, spin the wheel and then crack open the bleeder valve if the drag goes away. Then something is holding pressure in your system.

Great idea. I had high hopes for this one but almost no fluid escapes when opening the bleed valve and the brake pressure is not diminished. Took the opportunity to bleed a little and again check for air bubbles but there were none. Bleeding via the lever works as before so the MC works and there is no obstruction in the lines. It pumps out easily.

I removed the brake pads and they look normal. I relubed the pin that the brake pads glide on. I reinstalled the wheel following the manual to the letter (plus compressing forks before torquing the pinch bolt). No change.

I've took off the calipers again one by one to see if one is dragging more than the other but they are the same. If only one is attached the dragging feels like it should be with both.

I checked the brake lines again and did find that it does get pinched a little when the handlebars are in full lock to the right hand side. I tried to move it but it's attached to the factory clamps and there's no way to change it so I think it is how it is meant to be. Perhaps someone with a GT can confirm? Anyway it is not deformed and I can't see it cause this.

I'm all out of ideas again. The pistons move freely, wheel and calipers are straight, the brake fluid is not under pressure... why are the brakes dragging so? Maybe I should just try riding longer and see if it goes away when they get really hot?

[betoney]

13 minutes ago, petshark said:

Maybe I should just try riding longer and see if it goes away when they get really hot?

NO!!  Find the root of the problem. 

As others have mentioned, completely remove the brake lever and then try rolling the wheel, also try briefly cracking open the banjo bolt a half turn at the master cylinder and see if that relieves any dragging.  Hope that helps...

[peteinpa]

What is the history of this bike? did you buy it brand new?

Anytime you push pistons back into a caliper the pistons need to be spotlessly cleaned and even polished. If you push gunk into the seals they will drag.

Lots of how to's on Youtube for cleaning pistons.

I still wonder about that noise with just the wheel spinning. Might be something loose in the tire.

[petshark]

 

1 hour ago, betoney said:

NO!!  Find the root of the problem. 

As others have mentioned, completely remove the brake lever and then try rolling the wheel, also try briefly cracking open the banjo bolt a half turn at the master cylinder and see if that relieves any dragging.  Hope that helps...

Ok! Do you mean this union bolt ?

[betoney]

27 minutes ago, petshark said:

 

Ok! Do you mean this union bolt ?

Yes, like it mentions, put a rag under it and briefly loosen it just to see if it relieves any pressure at the caliper pistons.

[peteinpa]

Great video that shows simple cleaning to get rid of brake drag:

He puts out a lot of great videos.

[petshark]

1 hour ago, peteinpa said:

What is the history of this bike? did you buy it brand new?

No, bought it in december. I have a huge thread about brake problems from the start "bad brakes". With the help of the forum I have resolved these and the brakes have been excellent since. Well, until yesterday when they started being too good, braking even when they don't need to. 😅

15 minutes ago, peteinpa said:

Great video that shows simple cleaning to get rid of brake drag:

He puts out a lot of great videos.

That is very interesting! The difference is that he speaks of heaps of salt on the road and a lot of riding in said salt while I have not done a lot of riding since spotless cleaning the calipers with soap and a toothbrush. They were perfect and when I took them apart again today they were still very clean.

But still a very good find/tip and I will try it and let you know. Fingers crossed.

I had watched some of his videos in the past and liked them but the first time I heard his name was on a rival British garage channel; the workshop. There is a war between those two channels and their followers and I have no idea who is right but just wanted to let you know that there is a lot of controversy about the things Del does and says.

[Jfundo]

Ok, sorry, but that Delboy video is total bogus. What exactly is soap and a scotchbrite pad removing that doesn't come off under the heat and friction of using the brakes?  Crystals? Really? The tiny little bit of friction turning the wheel by hand is standard by the nature of brakes.  There is nothing that pushes the pads away from the disks so they will always rub if they are working properly.  

[petshark]

43 minutes ago, Jfundo said:

Ok, sorry, but that Delboy video is total bogus. What exactly is soap and a scotchbrite pad removing that doesn't come off under the heat and friction of using the brakes?  Crystals? Really? The tiny little bit of friction turning the wheel by hand is standard by the nature of brakes.  There is nothing that pushes the pads away from the disks so they will always rub if they are working properly.  

I think a lot of people agree that what Del says should be taken with a grain of salt (see what I did there 🙂) but I found the result quite convincing. The before and after speak for themselves, I'm not sure what is going on there but it's worth a try.

I have also pondered about why my brakes drag and why it is that they shouldn't drag (so much) because as you say "nothing pushes them back", and what I came up with is that friction pushes them back just enough till they no longer drag but lightly rub against the rotors. If hypothetically a piston seal was super loose and lubricated the piston and pad would probably retract until no longer touching the rotor at all because of all the micro collisions between the 2 surfaces.

That does again point in the direction of the pistons requiring more force to retract than normal. I keep saying that they feel normal but could be that I can't feel the difference and just being able to push them back does not mean that they move as freely as they should. I'm really just thinking out loud, I hope it's not confusing...

Edited February 5, 2021 by petshark

[Lone Wolf]

On 2/4/2021 at 7:23 AM, petshark said:

I also lack the experience to be sure that the brake pads dragging on the rotor is normal or there is something wrong here:

The fact that you could FEEL the issue while riding = something very wrong. Your video confirms not OK.

Just for info, here is what a normal pad dragging on the rotor sounds like:

 

[Jfundo]

The cold water from the hose might be enough to cause the brakes and brake fluid to contract just enough to make this much difference.  Or the thin layer of water on the disk is putting a little pressure on the pad pushing it back.  Or there is now soap in there reducing friction between the pad and rotor.  The real test would be if he squeezed the brakes again and then spun the wheel.  I bet the resistance would go right back to where it was before he started. And who wants their brakes to work worse anyway?

I think the noise your wheel is making is a stone or something caught either in the wheel spokes or in your tire.  The noise isn't rhythmic enough to be a part attached to the wheel going back.  The spin rate and the frequency of the noise don't match up.

The extra friction in your brakes does seem to be a bit much.  I just went out and spun my front wheel, the bike hasn't been ridden in 4 months and I never used soap on my disks.  With a decent push, the wheel made one full rotation, which is much more free than yours, so I agree that you have an issue.  Mind you, this is a very small issue.  I'm sure you are aware that it doesn't take a lot of pressure on the brake lever to make it so you can't possibly turn the front wheel by hand.  

As everyone suggested, I think you need to start eliminating sources of the extra pressure.  It is likely either in the master cylinder or the caliper (unless you have a very serious kink in the hose which I'm sure you would've found by now).  Disconnect the hose to see if it fixes the problem.  If it does, then the master cylinder is the issue, if it doesn't, then it is in one of your calipers.  I would then remove one caliper and then the other and see which one makes the difference.  Whichever it is needs to be taken apart and cleaned or re-built.  

I haven't needed to do this on a motorcycle before, but I've run into it with cars that when the brakes are dragging like this it is because the slide (or slide pin) is corroded and the caliper can't retract smoothly.  A quick sand, polish and grease of the sliding surfaces and it is good to go.

Half the piston has calipers that need to go in and out, but the other half of the caliper slides on the first half, and this sliding needs to be smooth too.  

 

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Jfundo