Front wheel noise

[NormR]

5 hours ago, petshark said:

I did this today and it made no difference.

I did another deep clean of the calipers and pistons today. I did not polish them because I have never done that before and don't have anything to polish with. I cleaned them one by one with soapy water and a toothbrush.

I've made some video's to demonstrate the retraction:

It looks normal to me.

I tried this and it did not make a difference

I did a search on how to polish and found that I could use toothpaste. This is the result:

It feels smooth to the touch and I have special brake lube that I reapplied after.

I checked and it does.

I tried this and let some fluid out of the MC banjo bolt and it did not relieve pressure

More details and result

I think I tried every suggestion here. Once the pistons were clean I spent a lot of time moving them back and forth until I was satisfied that they all moved out at the same time so none were restricted in any way.

The spin test showed a small improvement so I went for a 10 minute ride.

I still feel dragging but what's more upsetting is that I now also feel something weird through the footpegs. Like small shocks or hickups. At first I thought it was the engine misfiring but at standstill the engine sounds normal for a 3 cylinder I think, also when revving up. It's my first triple so I'm not sure.

I kept riding because I was doubting if what I was feeling is because I was so focused on any sensation.  So I tried a little more speed and pulled the clutch and just let it roll a couple of times. The bike rolled quite far but I still felt like the brakes were dragging a little. But definitely better, before the brakes really slowed the bike down quickly. Again not sure if it is back to normal or not.

Something is still off, and I did not dare ride further.

Back home I checked the heat on the rotors. One side was hot and the other was almost cooled down, that was at least a clue. I did this before the cleaning and the heat was exactly the same then. I did do a more thorough job on the one that was cooler (with the moving of the pistons etc) so I went to work on the other one again and made it perfect.

I have not gone for another test ride but the wheel spin test yields the same result as before so I don't think it helped.

The small "shocks or hiccups" your feeling might be your chain. Check if its at the proper tension. I had a similar vibration coming thru my pegs on my FZ1 and discovered my chain was super tight. Good luck

[knyte]

5 hours ago, petshark said:

feel something weird through the footpegs. Like small shocks or hickups.

I feel this every time I come back from a friends just south of the city.  There is a certain section of asphalt on HWY 2A with undulations very close to washboard...it's hard to describe.  The suspension seems to absorb it, but every time I ride over this section - it's maybe half a km or more - I'd SWEAR something feels like it's about to rattle right off.  I've pulled over more than once to check the bike and can only conclude the centre stand must be vibrating just enough to translate into something deceiving through the foot pegs.

I'm not sure that fits your circumstances, just thought it worth mentioning.

[Manxkiwi]

I just realised I didn't watch the first two videos! Doh. In the first one, it sounds to me like the floating discs clicking on their bobbins. I have Brembo track discs on my 675 and they sound like a dry clutch when you push the bike around!

Second video shows way too much drag. Have you tried taking a short ride them coming to a halt without applying the front brake, then try spinning the wheel. If it is still binding then obviously something isn't right. Even slightly binding brakes will be nudged back a tiny amount by the movement of the front end. A very small amount mind. Mind you, this thread wouldn't be here I guess if that happened.

Something I had on a rear brake of mine many years ago, was that the dust seal got partially rolled out of its groove. This was enough to stop the retract of the piston.

[PhotoAl]

Having read thru the whole thread just now had the same thought as @Manxkiwi - the dust seal or seal is not quite right.  Think its a stretch but wondering about new seals in the calipers or even new calipers.  You obviously had something going on with the brakes from when you bought the bike and have to wonder if perhaps a caliper machining is off or maybe just the seal is off or kinked a tiny bit.  You have gone thru everyone many times and have to be frustrated!  If you have a dial indicator maybe check the disks and wheel for out of round - think it the rotors were warped you would have seen that pretty quickly but something is not right.  The fact you could ride and one side was hot and the other not narrows it down a lot.

Have to wonder if previous owner had brake issues and gave up and sold the bike.  Again this leads me to think caliper or seal issues particularly if one side runs cool and the other hot.  Pull the spacers out and check them for proper thickness and being clean and free of dirt that could make them wider.  i.e. move wheel a tiny bit to the side.  Again don't think is likely when one side gets hot and the other not.  By one side I mean one rotor versus the other rotor not one side of a rotor vs the other side of that same rotor.

EDIT:  I'm sure if you cleaned the pins you cleaned the holes they go thru.

Edited February 7, 2021 by PhotoAl

[Lone Wolf]

15 hours ago, peteinpa said:

Remember in the 80's when all bikes came with fork braces? 

Upside down forks changed all that - so much stiffer. I still have a "super brace" on a vintage bike.

If you banged up an older bike with conventional forks, the tubes bent. Nowadays when someone hits something with a modern front end, it isn't that rare to break the F*ing frame of the bike because the front end "uppers" are so stiff.

[Your_Boy_Yuriy]

Here’s a videos of my 2020 tracer. 
 

Make sure you have absolutely no tension on the brake lines. I mentioned one of the brake lines had slight tension and that was because the forks were fully extended. I believe you mentioned somewhere on your post that you installed a external horn. Can you take a picture of the horn setup so we can see how much slack you have on the lines? 

I believe you mentioned you installed aftermarket brake pads maybe that’s why it’s extra grippy. 
 

If you want I can take another video with a piece of wood between the caliper pistons? 

Hope this video helps,

Yuriy Koval

Edited February 7, 2021 by Your_Boy_Yuriy

[petshark]

57 minutes ago, Your_Boy_Yuriy said:

Can you take a picture of the horn setup so we can see how much slack you have on the lines? 

Reply in video 😎

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, petshark said:

"It really is better"  "could be that it is back to normal" (comments during video).

That is not normal. Your front wheel is still dragging. compare to Yuriy's video, his wheel rotates at least a full circle after being pushed.

Also compare to this video (same as I posted on Friday) showing typical brake drag which is a bit more than Yuri - but a lot less than your last video.  Yours is not typical. As soon as you stop pushing the wheel, it HALTS immediately rather than continue moving at least a bit.

You mention the EBC HH pads - and while this problem may have appeared after they were installed - they are not the cause of the problem. Sintered pads are going to have more friction when the brakes are APPLIED, but at rest they are not relevant. Something else is going on.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Lone Wolf

[Your_Boy_Yuriy]

Everything looks okay! Be cautious when riding for the first 10 minutes. And do a couple hard brake tests. 
 

If you really want to know if those aftermarket pads are causing the extra fiction install the old pad and compare. 
 

Glad you fix it and ride safe,

Yuriy Koval 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Your_Boy_Yuriy

[Your_Boy_Yuriy]

7 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

That is not normal.

Well I guess it’s not fix just yet. 
 

Yuriy

[Lone Wolf]

On 2/4/2021 at 9:02 AM, petshark said:

I removed the calipers... I can move all pistons so none are stuck. I pushed them back and reinstalled (first hand-tight then torqued down while applying the brake)

I have cleaned the calipers, changed the pads and bled the brake fluid only 2 weeks ago. I did a few rides since then and everything worked fine until today.

...It feels to me like the pressure in the brake fluid is not completely released. Like trail braking. The lever feels exactly the same though, it returns to the zero position as before.

The only other clue I have is that almost all the rides I did were wet and I did hose the wheels down each time. So they saw a lot of water.

There are 2 things that are really odd. This is essentially a new bike, and grief like this usually shows up on an older bike that has been in storage for years.

The other odd part is that your bike was fine after changing the pads, the problem showed up 2 weeks later.  That makes the "cause and effect" harder to track down. Sure you hosed the bike with water but it should withstand that. You mentioned brake cleaner on the rubber seals that isn't good...

If it was my bike, and I had tried everything you already mentioned, I would still do one more thing. I would pull some brake fluid out of the master cylinder to create some room, and intentionally try to push the caliper pistons in a bit. That will force some brake fluid back into the master cylinder, something to watch out for overflow.

You established that the caliper pistons are not stuck and move easily (which is good) but usually when you push one, the others want to extend outward. I am talking about pushing all of them in a bit to create an abundance of clearance, the wheel will spin free, then with the bike on a front lift spin the wheel and apply front brake. If the brakes don't release properly and there is no improvement - I would change the caliper seals. Shouldn't have to on a 2019 model, but something is going on.

The following video is set to start where he does the procedure I am referring to. It isn't the same bike, but the FZ07 does have 4 piston calipers and he shows the movement, and getting the pistons pushed back in. People replacing worn pads have to do this because the new pads are thicker than the old pads. You could use your old pads and a screwdriver to get the pistons in a bit. Just enough to be absolutely sure that the wheel spins easy, and then see if the problem persists when apply the front brake.

 

[peteinpa]

We've had this discussion on the St1300 forum in the past, but here goes:

What do you consider is an acceptable amount of spins on the front wheel?

What is yours doing now?

You must apply the brake hard, let it go then try to spin it.

[petshark]

On 2/7/2021 at 4:58 AM, Manxkiwi said:

Second video shows way too much drag. Have you tried taking a short ride them coming to a halt without applying the front brake, then try spinning the wheel. If it is still binding then obviously something isn't right. Even slightly binding brakes will be nudged back a tiny amount by the movement of the front end. A very small amount mind. Mind you, this thread wouldn't be here I guess if that happened.

I haven't tried this and can't right now because the snow is frozen solid and I had trouble getting my car up the driveway even. 🙂 Will give it a go but now we're comparing with other bikes and all will have used the front brake just before parking the bike and they all spin a lot more.

On 2/7/2021 at 2:28 AM, knyte said:

There is a certain section of asphalt on HWY 2A with undulations very close to washboard...it's hard to describe. 

I don't think this is the same as I just did a short drive over good asphalt where I never felt this. Did you get the chance to do this section on other tyres? They will also play a role probably.

On 2/7/2021 at 5:17 AM, PhotoAl said:

Have to wonder if previous owner had brake issues and gave up and sold the bike.  Again this leads me to think caliper or seal issues particularly if one side runs cool and the other hot.  Pull the spacers out and check them for proper thickness and being clean and free of dirt that could make them wider.  i.e. move wheel a tiny bit to the side.

I don't think so, the issues I had before were contaminated pads. The brakes have worked perfectly ever since changing the pads and the brake bleed did not add much to this. So one side ran hotter after I cleaned both calipers and pistons but went a little further on the last one I put on. This one ran cooler after the test ride so I cleaned the other one just as deep. I have not been able to test if they are now equal again because of the snow, but I expect they are. I have gotten quite intimate with the pistons pushing them completely in and almost maximum out (after making sure they were completely clean of course) and they all feel smooth and come out together.

15 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Also compare to this video (same as I posted on Friday) showing typical brake drag which is a bit more than Yuri - but a lot less than your last video.  Yours is not typical. As soon as you stop pushing the wheel, it HALTS immediately rather than continue moving at least a bit.

I have closely compared that video and mine and I don't see that much of a difference to be honest. I see his wheel doing 1/2 rotation (180 degrees) and mine is doing almost the same. Could be that I'm trying harder though 😉

15 hours ago, Your_Boy_Yuriy said:

If you really want to know if those aftermarket pads are causing the extra fiction install the old pad and compare. 

Good idea but I can't do that because they were contaminated and I risk contaminating the rotors again.

12 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

I would pull some brake fluid out of the master cylinder to create some room, and intentionally try to push the caliper pistons in a bit. That will force some brake fluid back into the master cylinder, something to watch out for overflow.

You established that the caliper pistons are not stuck and move easily (which is good) but usually when you push one, the others want to extend outward. I am talking about pushing all of them in a bit to create an abundance of clearance, the wheel will spin free, then with the bike on a front lift spin the wheel and apply front brake.

I have done this and more during the cleaning. I have let them come out one by one almost to the maximum and cleaned thoroughly. Then pressed it in all the way to be able to clean the narrow edge between the piston and the caliper sidewall.

After I had done all 4 pistons I have pushed them all in until they were flush and then used the lever to push them out. I've repeated this routine until all pistons came out together. Only after this did I make the video's with the block of wood in between them to show the retraction.

Seeing that they all now have the same resistance from the seals to coming out and the retraction is equal on all of them, I would conclude that it is not possible for one or two seals to be bad because they would behave differently.

 

what next

Let me first again thank everyone here. You are so generous with your time and this community really is amazing. For now I should probably stop speculating until I can test-ride again. The weather forecast predicts sub zero temperatures as far as it can see (8+ days) which means that all this frozen snow, road salt and muck on the roads is here to stay. I don't mind riding in the winter but this is where I draw the line. 😉

What made me afraid to continue riding was the hiccup feeling rather than the brake dragging. I have checked the chain tension and it is within specs but it is kind of dry! I haven't reached the 500 km mark since last lubing yet but I have hosed the bike down a few times and ridden in the rain so I guess I have now learned that this means I should lube the chain even earlier in these conditions. I use gear oil instead of commercial products after watching the FortNine Never Buy Chain Lube Again? Comparison Test and am really satisfied with it but this could be a small downside compared to waxes. (resistance to water was not tested)

So in conclusion it is possible that

1. the second cleaning has fixed the second caliper and both rotors will now run cool. I have yet to test this.
2. after setting the wheel correct (fork compress before pinch bolt) and calipers (tension under lever pressure) I need to bed the brakes in again. I suspect that the grooves no longer align and this could be the cause of excessive drag.
3. the chain was under-lubricated and that was causing the hiccup sensation. Honestly if this was not there I would have felt like the issue was fixed last time.

Please correct me if I'm wrong and again THANK YOU ALL!

Edited February 8, 2021 by petshark

[ASerio]

hey guys, talked to a mechanic few days ago,  he says that the noise we hear are the front flutuating discs that get some freeplay,   what you guys think of it ? 

[peteinpa]

Going back to the Jake video, you can see the dirt lines on the pistons. He does no cleaning and shoves them in.

That will cause this drag problem. Always clean, and if needed polish any corrosion off till there is no line left. If you push 1 piston out just short of all the way you can turn it in its bore to clean all around. there are tools to grab MC pistons from the inside hollow part to not scratch the outside.

Fz07 calipers seem the same as ours.