Stoppies for survival (motorcycle vs car brakes)

[petshark]

I saw this really interesting video that explains why cars will almost always stop quicker than bikes.

So I started practising stoppies today. I thought I was pretty good on the brakes because I practise panic braking regularly but I found out that there is a lot of room for improvement.
 

I triggered the ABS most of the time but got out a few nice ones as well. Wow, there is squeezing and squeezing.. incredible how subtle differences yield such different results. I think I will spend a lot of time down this rabbit hole. 
 

After this practice I went for a spirited ride and It felt like my braking skills had gone up a level. Yey!

[Salish900]

1 hour ago, petshark said:

So I started practising stoppies today.

Good practice is certainly key. Bret Tkacs is a local guy here in Puget Sound, and does a good job. It's a core part of MSF curriculum here in the US that you teach stopping distance and the fallacy that bikes can stop faster. Our best friend is following distance. 2 seconds minimum. Try it sometime, it's a long way at 100kph. 

[knyte]

5 minutes ago, Salish900 said:

Bret Tkacs

What happened with MotoTrek?  ..not that it matters much, I'm glad to have both YT channels.  It just seemed Bret's content was a notch up in production value with MotoTrek.

[Salish900]

5 minutes ago, knyte said:

What happened with MotoTrek?  ..not that it matters much, I'm glad to have both YT channels.  It just seemed Bret's content was a notch up in production value with MotoTrek.

I'm not sure but I know when visiting his offices once he had a sort of production studio set up. He and his wife own a local motorcycle training school and car driving school. He actually got the State of WA to approve his own motorcycle curriculum that is now used in place of MSF by a few outfits here locally. My own view as an MSF instructor is that it has some clear benefits, but also failings. I think a student could take it and do fine with it, but no better than the updated MSF. 

Both curriculum approaches emphasize stopping distance and the realities of reaction time and tire friction. You are simply not going to pull a 1G stop most of the time in the normal conditions we see around. Between rain, gravel, oil and such, you simply can't. On his videos, that paking lot he uses is one of his class locations not 5 miles from my house. The parking lot is dry and clean. Try that in a corner or in the rain or...

Again, bottom line, is following distance is by far the greatest thing you can do to avoid nasty impacts. Minimum 2 seconds. Scanning 12. 

[petshark]

I agree about keeping distance.

There are occasions when that distance will be stolen though like when a car turns or pulls out in front of me. 

I see no reason not to aim for the shortest stopping distance in any situation, regardless of the road condition.

This video convinced me that a stoppie decreases that distance by converting forward to upward energy.

I’m going to practise this often and hope that my muscle memory will then do the correct squeeze in any future panic brake situations. 

[whistler]

On 3/19/2021 at 6:11 PM, Salish900 said:

 Our best friend is following distance. 2 seconds minimum. Try it sometime, it's a long way at 100kph. 

Yep, couldn't agree more, Salish.  That simple 2-second buffer is amazingly effective.  Wish most cagers would employ the same practice, especially here in the DC-MD-VA CommutOlympics events that are held every...single...day.

[fjray]

If you'd been  driving a semi heavily loaded for  years  like I did, you'd leave a lot of following distance in front of you.   Drove a charter bus too and  there they want you to  leave a 4 second  following  distance.  But  everyone should do the 2 seconds, and I don't  see that very often out there.

[Wintersdark]

For sure.  Obviously it depends heavily on the environment (keep too long a distance between you and the car in front of you on a busy highway, and people will keep cutting into it resulting in you often having a shorter available stopping distance) but I really prefer a longer following distance when possible.  As a winter rider, it's something you really need to be cognizant of - when you're mostly restricted to only your rear brake, stopping distances *need* to be longer.  Tkacs touches on this in the video, but I'll reiterate: While reasonably skilled riders can get close to ABS performance and run closer to 1G in carefully controlled conditions, on the street (read: where conditions are pretty much unknowable and ever changing) you're going to be way, way far behind 1G braking overall.  How much sand is on the road *right where you're emergency braking*?  You've practiced at 23C, but it's only 10C this morning, how much traction have you actually lost?  

It's just critical to have as much follow distance as you can manage.   And - again, with the environmental/traffic caveat above as an exception - it doesn't matter how fast you want to ride.  If you're not going to be able to pass someone immediately, it doesn't matter if you're half a second behind them or 5 seconds behind them, you're riding at the same speed.  Thus, there's no reason to hug bumpers.  And even if you are planning to pass them, at least here in Tracer land you can go from highway speed limit speed to really freaking fast extremely quickly, so there's still no need to be snuggled right up to them.  

Rear ending someone on a bike is not a good time.  Even at a low speed, it's really, really not fun.  As a 16 year old kid doing it at 30mph/50kph cost me a functional testicle (everything else aside, this was an intensely horrible experience!), a great deal of internal bleeding, several broken ribs, a broken collarbone, and what seemed like more bruising than skin surface area.  Though it also did provide a very good example of why IMHO you're a bloody idiot if you ride with a helmet that lacks a chin guard.  I flew into a parked Corolla face first, and actually broke the chin guard on my helmet, but did zero damage to my face.  I might not be pretty, but I'm still pretty attached to my nose and teeth. 

And yeah, I'm a big fan of "never ride faster than you can see" - though I'll admit I do occasionally get a little zoomy in corners I know well.  

[wa__shawnnn]

Does our abs light blinks when only our rear wheel abs was activated during free wheeling. 
I know the front does when it is activated.   

Was testing it ytd and realized when only my rear abs was activated during free wheeling, the light didn't came out. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by wa__shawnnn

[petshark]

2 hours ago, wa__shawnnn said:

Does our abs light blinks when only our rear wheel abs was activated during free wheeling. 
I know the front does when it is activated.   

Was testing it ytd and realized when only my rear abs was activated during free wheeling, the light didn't came out. 

Now that you mention it, I don’t think it does. 

[keithu]

Good discussion. Another thing people here probably don't want to hear: All else being equal, cruisers and big touring bikes will usually stop shorter than standards or sportbikes.

I used to teach MSF on Navy bases where we didn't have training bikes, so students rode their own bikes. I saw hundreds of riders go through those braking drills on GSXRs, Harleys, CBRs, Gold Wings, you name it. The Harleys and Gold Wings almost always had the shortest stopping distances. Despite being heavier, they had useful braking traction on both front and rear tires, whereas sportbikes tend to shift nearly all weight to the front under heavy braking. So if you're on a sportier bike, following distance is even more critical. 

Also, and I know this is controversial: the absolutely worse braking performance was always a sportbike rider trying to brake with just one or two fingers. They were far more likely to grab rather than squeeze, lock the front, or just generally blow through the target distance. This always generates a lot of negative reactions when I point this out. I'll just say it was my observation after watching a few hundred riders do the same drill. Most of us aren't as good as we think we are.

[Salish900]

1 minute ago, keithu said:

Most of us aren't as good as we think we are.

You speak the absolute truth. No one should argue with your experience teaching on Naval bases. My MSF teaching experience was with the general population, so more older riders and slackers. Same conclusions. Only caveat I'd give is if the cruiser has old style drum brakes then that can reduce braking power. Threshold braking takes serious practice, and far too many students come in hearing to "Never use the front brake" from their cousins and then they lock up the rear and low side on the training course. 

[Wintersdark]

10 hours ago, keithu said:

Most of us aren't as good as we think we are.

So much this.  

A big problem is that we'll go practice skills, but we may well be practicing poor techniques and just reinforcing bad behaviours.  For braking in particular, this is a big part of why I'm super-strongly pro ABS: It's very easy to safely practice emergency braking when you can push right till ABS engages so you know where the threshold is, without fear of locking wheels.  And then practice getting the ABS to trigger earlier instead of towards the end of the braking.

Not that practice is bad, obviously.  It's just really easy to get to thinking you're better than you are when you're practicing often but not able to objectively measure performance. 

[PhotoAl]

I ride my scooter around the neighborhood a lot.  When I don't have a cager behind me I will often hold the braking till the very last moment and then absolutely nail the brakes, make a quick complete stop, touch my toes to the ground then I'm away.  Amazing how quickly you can stop.  The other day I rode by the local Cycle Gear and was headed home, turned a corner and just as I cam around a lady pulled out right in front of me but going across my lane.  I could see the absolute look of terror on her face!  I nailed the brakes just like I was at a stop sign and easily stopped with lots of extra space.  Meanwhile she hit the brakes then the gas and zoomed away.  I neve came to a complete stop but didn't need to.  Gave her the time to clear but if needed I could have easily stopped with more than a car length of space to spare.  What turned out to be a mundane (for me) and somewhat amusing stop for me was because I had been practicing those stops.  Now I need to work on myTracer GT stops the same way.  

I almost always use 2 fingers to stop and have been for years.  On my ZX6R 636 ABS had one absolute panic stop and actually locked up the front with just the 2 fingers.  I was passing someone who had pulled over I thought to drop someone off.  Turned out it was for a fire truck around the corner I could not see when coming up behind him.  As I approached him I saw the fire truck and was focused on it.  The idiot actually pulled out to block me but instead almost hit me - I saw him out of the corner of my eye and his left rear side panel was inches from my right mirror.  Emergency braking a slight drift to the left and was able to slow and pull behind him.  I have complete GoPro footage including his comments about me at the next red light.  He was running his mouth and I was looking at the hang tag on his mirror going I have one just like that on my car from work.  I could have stirred up trouble for him but decided to just let it go.  We tend to forget that there are some drivers out there with serious mental issues.  Ride safe!

I have really enjoyed my long solo trips out west and plan more.  Riding in less densely populated areas is so nice.  When on a long trip I deliberately plot my route to avoid large cities like Kansas City and Omaha.  Working on getting around Memphis.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by PhotoAl

[Lone Wolf]

On 3/20/2021 at 4:58 AM, petshark said:

I see no reason not to aim for the shortest stopping distance in any situation, regardless of the road condition.

OK, as long as you are aware of how close any vehicles are behind you - and you initiate the brakes smoothly then hard as mentioned in this video. Personally, I only "aim for shortest stopping distance" when I have confirmed there is no one around me. But I get it, we practice so we don't have to think when it hits the fan.