Tracer 900 GT vs Tracer 9 GT + consistency theory

[Grumpy Goat]

16 hours ago, ZigMerid said:

I'm not sure a weak rear brake is a bad thing. Given that a rear brake is predominantly for control + adding maybe 10% to total breaking capability when applying the front brake, it must be extraordinarily weak to be noticeable.

Exactly how weak is the rear brake? Do you have to really stomp on it to get any braking effect? I would think that if a rear brake works well enough to help you control slow speed manoeuvres, then it's pretty much doing its job.

I agree on the typical use of the rear brake but I paid for rear brakes and I want it to work properly. As the rider I must have the option of how much rear brakes to apply, if at all.

My BMW has linked brakes and that system works quite well. I apply rear brakes when I want / need it, which is maybe 5% of the time, but that is hardly the point. I am not expecting it to be as strong as the BMW's but heck, I should not have to press that much to feel a good slowing effect. Added to that, the pedal was factory-installed such that it required too much ankle angle downward to get into the braking zone, and that is with the pedal adjustment all the way up. I made a video about this. I ended up having to put a pad on the pedal to bring it up to a good level where I now can press it properly. And yes since adding the pad I can activate the rear ABS, but the rear brake is still a wuss. Front brakes are quite adequate for what it is, thank God.

[petshark]

20 minutes ago, Grumpy Goat said:

I agree on the typical use of the rear brake but I paid for rear brakes and I want it to work properly. As the rider I must have the option of how much rear brakes to apply, if at all.

My BMW has linked brakes and that system works quite well. I apply rear brakes when I want / need it, which is maybe 5% of the time, but that is hardly the point. I am not expecting it to be as strong as the BMW's but heck, I should not have to press that much to feel a good slowing effect. Added to that, the pedal was factory-installed such that it required too much ankle angle downward to get into the braking zone, and that is with the pedal adjustment all the way up. I made a video about this. I ended up having to put a pad on the pedal to bring it up to a good level where I now can press it properly. And yes since adding the pad I can activate the rear ABS, but the rear brake is still a wuss. Front brakes are quite adequate for what it is, thank God.

I just did test rides on two new S1000XR's and the front brakes have left me speechless. I did not notice anything different in the rear though. Probably because I never use it to slow down, only to stabilize.

I get your point that you want to have the option but that option does take away from the feel for those that want to use it only for minor corrections. If the entire range of feel is available for light braking that works better for me.

I agree that if you demand stopping power from the rear, then Yamaha has failed miserably. But I do think this is by design. Maybe it's because the brand has much more of a sports bike heritage than BMW that they have settled on using the rear only for corrections while BMW knows its customer base wants everything to be wunderbar? They also attract a lot of Sunday riders that may not even dare to touch the front brake. I was in an advanced rider course where a rider with a brand new GS said exactly that; "never touch the front brake, it's too dangerous". He was taught that be a certified "instructor". Unbelievable in this age, right?

Anyway, I can only say that I personally prefer it as it is. 

[Grumpy Goat]

3 hours ago, petshark said:

I agree that if you demand stopping power from the rear, then Yamaha has failed miserably. But I do think this is by design. Maybe it's because the brand has much more of a sports bike heritage than BMW that they have settled on using the rear only for corrections while BMW knows its customer base wants everything to be wunderbar?

I don't know ... my S1000R had even better brakes than the RS - front and rear.

I'll just change out the pads and hope that it improves it to the best that it can be ... 🙂

[ZigMerid]

7 hours ago, petshark said:

I still got a huge improvement by really bedding these stock pads in. By this I mean accelerating to 100km/h and braking very hard and repeating this a couple of times so the brakes get very hot.

I recently saw this technique on a trusted youtube channel (South Main Auto). Although it was for high quality brake replacement on an auto, obviously the same theory applies. I confess to never thinking much about it before then, but it makes sense that the rotors and pads need some sort of bedding in.

I imagine that front brakes get bedded in one way or the other anyway, just thru regular use. But, I'm wondering whether it's possible that rear brakes may need specific bedding in as they otherwise may rarely, if ever, experience this sort of heavy braking in the normal course of use.

Perhaps just regular use over time has the same effect, but maybe not?

 

[petshark]

3 hours ago, Grumpy Goat said:

I don't know ... my S1000R had even better brakes than the RS - front and rear.

I'll just change out the pads and hope that it improves it to the best that it can be ... 🙂

It really does make a big difference. I'm still not certain that I won't do the same. (only the front though)

I have no experience with supersports bikes but I imagine that the S1000 bikes get the best brakes that are available at a reasonable price point. The RS and GS will be a tier lower and the Tracer another one below that. It's price vs package vs intented use and all that. Tracer buyers aren't looking for cutting edge brakes. We like them yes, but we don't want to pay for them.

I really wanted to buy the XR but it's really the comparison of price vs value that killed that deal and got me to buy another tracer instead. I still can't believe that I did that but I'm very confident that I made the right choice. But I'll never forget those Hayes brakes. I loved them.

[petshark]

1 hour ago, ZigMerid said:

I recently saw this technique on a trusted youtube channel (South Main Auto). Although it was for high quality brake replacement on an auto, obviously the same theory applies. I confess to never thinking much about it before then, but it makes sense that the rotors and pads need some sort of bedding in.

I imagine that front brakes get bedded in one way or the other anyway, just thru regular use. But, I'm wondering whether it's possible that rear brakes may need specific bedding in as they otherwise may rarely, if ever, experience this sort of heavy braking in the normal course of use.

Perhaps just regular use over time has the same effect, but maybe not?

 

Maybe but I think you really need to get them very hot to release the maximum potential. I could be wrong. I can only give testimony that it's a very efficient way to get them to work great instantly.

[ZigMerid]

18 minutes ago, petshark said:

Maybe but I think you really need to get them very hot to release the maximum potential

I imagine that's pretty hard to do with a rear brake. What with weight transfer and ABS, getting a rear pad/rotor hot could be quite a challenge.

 

I guess you could "ride" the rear brake for a while, but ug.

Edited July 5, 2022 by ZigMerid

[Grumpy Goat]

1 hour ago, petshark said:

I have no experience with supersports bikes but I imagine that the S1000 bikes get the best brakes that are available at a reasonable price point. The RS and GS will be a tier lower and the Tracer another one below that.

I don't think so. Aside from the M1000RR the RS and GS are both more expensive than the typical S1000RR / S1000R. Its in the tuning for the brakes (components like the brake master cylinder) and the pads used that makes the difference. Just looking at them, the Brembo calipers on the RS and the S1000R were very similar if not the same. Of course, it does help that the S1000R was more than 100# lighter than my RS.

Agree that the Tracer is not a premium bike so it cannot be compared to the BMW (and I am not, or else I'd mention the front brakes also, but I have not - the Tracer's are quite adequate) but all I am saying is that a bit more on a touring bike of this weight would be a good thing.

[petshark]

12 hours ago, ZigMerid said:

I imagine that's pretty hard to do with a rear brake. What with weight transfer and ABS, getting a rear pad/rotor hot could be quite a challenge.

 

I guess you could "ride" the rear brake for a while, but ug.

Just now I tried to stop at a traffic from high speed (from far away) only using the rear and just made it without triggering the ABS. If you do that a couple of times they will get hot don't you think? 

btw, on my 900 I have a long thread (early 2021 I think) called "bad brakes" and in my case they really were contaminated by the previous owner. I don't know with what but the rear didn't do anything and the front was also very bad.

With the help of the forum I scrubbed the rotors with alcohol and installed the EBC's and it has been perfect ever since. A lot better than the Tracer 9 comes out of the factory.

[petshark]

11 hours ago, Grumpy Goat said:

Agree that the Tracer is not a premium bike so it cannot be compared to the BMW (and I am not, or else I'd mention the front brakes also, but I have not - the Tracer's are quite adequate) but all I am saying is that a bit more on a touring bike of this weight would be a good thing.

I think the EBC pads will be the great then. They do add a lot of bite.

[psyshack]

As I dive deeper into the realm of possibly buying a new Tracer GT to stable with my 2018 Wing. I hope the Tracer GT brakes aren't weak. While the back brake on the Wing is on the weak side and I'm ok with that as I don't use it much because there linked brake kaka. The fronts are monsters! My Wing didn't respond much to EBC's if at all. The Honda pads were really pretty good and the slipper clutch is the real deal. When on the Wing and blowing by Jesus as a brake marker the slipper clutch and front brakes really do haul the 855 lb. behemoth down really well. DCT's don't do that so well and can lock you out of massive downshifts even in manual mode because there is no slipper function. 

[OldBikers]

I don't feel that the rear brake is weak but then I don't slam on it, I did manage to lock up the rear a few times.  The front brakes are more than adequate for street use not really for track. 

[bwringer]

I can verify that the few times when I've had a chance to ride supposedly identical, or close to identical, bikes, they've always felt suprisingly different.

 

I think someone mentioned the guitar analogy above; if a large guitar shop has more than one example, they'll usually have you try them and pick out the exact one that feels the best. They really do differ. When I got my second real "pro" level electric bass, I ended up with a sparkly ski boat red color I didn't really want for this reason. It felt and played the best, despite the tacky color.

 

As far as my FJ-09, I think I really got a "smoothie"... I've never really even noticed vibration through the footpegs or felt the slightest urge to change them for rubbery versions, yet this is a common complaint and modification.

I recently rode a later model with the rubbery pegs, and they buzzed pretty noticeably. I know another guy with a 2015, and we'll need to arrange a swap sometime to see how they feel different.

[peteinpa]

In all my riding I never had the chance to hop on a different, identical bike. Would be interesting. closest I got was I had a 650 Nighthawk and I traded with a Nighthawk S.

I'm closing in on 10k miles on my 2015 FJ09. OEM pads still all around. Just got back from a ride and purposly paid attention to the rear brake. I wouldn't want it more agressive. Clean, dry, textured, pavement and it engages ABS easily. Wouldn't want wet, cold, slick pavement.

If you're at low miles, start using that rear more aggressively. It might not have broke in yet. Try removing the pads and sand them, clean the rotor, and break in again.

Front brakes are great too.  Best I've had yet.

[petshark]

3 hours ago, bwringer said:

I think someone mentioned the guitar analogy above; if a large guitar shop has more than one example, they'll usually have you try them and pick out the exact one that feels the best. They really do differ. When I got my second real "pro" level electric bass, I ended up with a sparkly ski boat red color I didn't really want for this reason. It felt and played the best, despite the tacky color.

It was me, in the first post. I am/was a pro guitar player and it took a long time for me to realise this very fact. Go to the biggest guitar shop you can find and play 10 boutique expensive guitars that are supposed to be exactly the same. Last time I did this I had to do an elimination trial and play each instrument for 10 minutes and then remove a couple that left no impression.. and so on until there was a very difficult decision between two guitars that have their own thing. And yes, my nr.1 guitar is a custom shop telecaster, a model that I really hated the look of and always have. Now I've just bought this Tracer 9 which is also sorely lacking in the looks department. I hope I will grow to love it as much as that guitar. I think I will.

Now, I wasn't quick to carry over that analogy to these machines because guitars are made of wood, they are organic and truly unique. But I don't know.. I'm such a rational person but often have a hard time telling myself that these are inanimate objects and the only character they have is projected by us. Bikes are made up of a zillion parts while guitars are really simple in comparison. And AFAIK there are not built from top to bottom by robots, there's still a lot of human labour in the assembly process. And that means imperfection. Isn't that another word for character?