Brand New Bike - 1st Oil Change

[2and3cylinders]

4 hours ago, OldBikers said:

I'm in the group that says to let the service pros go over the bike for the first service.  They are experienced to see things the average backyard mechanic misses.  I have worked on bikes for years but today they are so complicated electronically that I feel better to let the professionals do the work and I am still able to afford it.

 

I may add that I live in a high rise condo where working on any vehicle is not allowed by the HOA.  (Of course we do cheat and do things we're not allowed to do like putting on accessories and such.)

You're just lazy Dave, and use the plastic as an excuse 🫢

And immature when you get new toys and can't wait to get them installed 😁

But I'd rather have you pass out in the Bret Cave first than we finally get you here with parts finally so I can pop em in

LOL

[ZigMerid]

17 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

one cannot put a price on the feeling of self confidence, accomplishment and pride gained with development of of the process of becoming "one" with your machine; including concurrently improving one's riding skill sets!

 

But I did that five motorbikes back. I don't care to revisit that rather boring process with every motorbike that comes into my garage. I know for certain that I will learn nothing new about my Tracer if I do the oil change. It's the same ol' same old.

And as for improving riding skills. Again I go to the pros. For training sessions and track sessions on how to actually ride.

4 hours ago, betoney said:

In addition to paying $120-$130 an hour for basic elementary level maintenance

But "elementary" is not what I get when I go to my service crowd. When I put my previous motorbike in for a service with them for the first time, they found a number of things I didn't notice relating to suspension and brakes and an alignment issue with the rear wheel.

They noticed all this in their routine inspection and ride check. Once they pointed them out to me, it was fairly obvious and nothing was seriously wrong, but they just weren't things I was looking for or necessarily had the skills to recognise as being abnormal because I don't service 20 motorbikes a day.

4 hours ago, betoney said:

$400 for labor, plus their 30% markup

How much do you spend a year on fuel, insurance, tires, chains, rego and depreciation? The marginal difference between what a professional service costs and how much you can do it for yourself really is chickenfeed if you look at total cost of ownership.

And of course having a professional service your machine doesn't preclude you giving it a good once-over before riding or when giving it a tub - which is what I do. It's not an either/or situation. Heck you could even get a professional service once every couple of years and do the in-betweens yourself.

Granted, finding a trustworthy service mob can be hard. I found my indie service crowd thru a local riding group and now all of us send all our business their way which makes them happy and profitable and us happy and riding. I certainly don't begrudge them charging enough money to pay their mechanics well and keep in business.

[OldBikers]

11 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

You're just lazy Dave, and use the plastic as an excuse 🫢

And immature when you get new toys and can't wait to get them installed 😁

But I'd rather have you pass out in the Bret Cave first than we finally get you here with parts finally so I can pop em in

LOL

It's not a case of being lazy.  I wanted to get those lights wired before I went to the Blue Ridge and didn't have the patience to wait for you as you kept delaying.  I appreciate your offer to work on the bike but it seems that it doesn't happen as expected.

As far as cost goes, what the shop charges is worth it for the peace of mind that the job was done right.  They have the computer dongle to check for codes and fix them when all you see is the check engine light.  I bought a shop manual and it is OK but still leaves a lot to be desired.

😁

[Hamilton Tracer]

Speaking of shop manuals, do we have an PDf file on this forum?

[2and3cylinders]

13 hours ago, OldBikers said:

It's not a case of being lazy.  I wanted to get those lights wired before I went to the Blue Ridge and didn't have the patience to wait for you as you kept delaying.  I appreciate your offer to work on the bike but it seems that it doesn't happen as expected.

As far as cost goes, what the shop charges is worth it for the peace of mind that the job was done right.  They have the computer dongle to check for codes and fix them when all you see is the check engine light.  I bought a shop manual and it is OK but still leaves a lot to be desired.

😁

It's easy to yank your chain! 

And how do you know things are done right?

[miweber929]

On 12/24/2023 at 4:32 PM, OldBikers said:

I'm in the group that says to let the service pros go over the bike for the first service.  They are experienced to see things the average backyard mechanic misses.  I have worked on bikes for years but today they are so complicated electronically that I feel better to let the professionals do the work and I am still able to afford it.

I agree with this. I can also tell you from experience that as someone who used to always do every service themselves and would in the past never have let a shop touch my bike unless it’s absolutely necessary that having a shop doing the first service, and in the case of Ducati, the annual services, Ducati has “extended” my warranty well past the actual 2 years and worked on a couple things at no cost in year 3 and 4 or I had to pay for the parts only and they covered labor. That was a big plus to me and why I kept going back to them for service. 

[bwringer]

14 hours ago, Hamilton Tracer said:

Speaking of shop manuals, do we have an PDf file on this forum?

You won't find these on most forums due to the potential for ruinous copyright issues.

 

 

As to the original question... opinions vary widely, and when you look closely, both "DIY or die" and "take it to the dealer" are valid. It depends on the situation, and location.

The main consideration is whether the techs in the dealer's service department actually know what they're doing. In much of the USA, the situation is shockingly bad. 

You can only find quality, knowledgable Yamaha service at dealers in a few isolated places, generally either very large cities, or large cities with year-round riding weather. And you can also get lucky here and there in other places.

The essential problem is that motorcycle mechanicking is low-paid seasonal work in most of the country, so at many dealers you see mostly assorted drifters, teenagers, and numbskulls twiddling wrenches, supposedly "supervised" by the one year-rounder who might know what they're doing. You also get people who have more of a passion for motorsports, or just want to feel "cool", than actual skills or the ability or desire to acquire said skills.

The ol' bait and switch is another problem; when you drop off the bike, you might actually talk to a seemingly competent person (although the brainless service writer is all too common), but they're too busy talking to customers and hand off the actual work to Skippy the Crackhead. It's often deliberately made quite difficult or impossible to speak with the actual tech doing the work.

As another example, you can find competent service pretty easily for Harley-Davidson; they have far more overall motorcycle market share in the US than any other brand (28%, more than double that of Yamaha), and own 50%+ of the "heavyweight" (651cc+) market. Here in the midwest, Harley's market share can top 75-80%, so there's a much larger customer base and thus much better general competence in service. (Plus, all or nearly all US HD dealerships are now single brand, so owners benefit from specialization.) Whether you like the bikes or not, the brand has some clear advantages.

 

Zig has had mostly very positive experiences, and so the expense is well worth it. Apparently the Yamaha pros in Australia really are pros.

This experience is EXTREMELY rare in the USA. Generally, Yamaha riders in very large cities like New York or Chicago, and especially warm-weather cities like Los Angeles, are actually able to find competent dealer service and good independent shops, so you'll find a lot more riders who use dealers and shops.

Here in the midwest of the US, there are a few competent Japanese brand techs here and there (their identities are a jealously guarded secret, and they're always booked for months), but generally if you're relying on dealer service you need to be on EXTREMELY high alert at all times, from dropoff to a careful inspection before trustingly riding away.

The bottom line is that to safely ride and enjoy a motorcycle in most of the US, riders MUST have at least some basic level of mechanical competence of their own, and put a fair bit of work into locating folks with the skills, equipment, and knowledge they don't have. 

You certainly can depend on a dealer, but only in a few places.

Edited December 26, 2023 by bwringer

[RonZuidhoek]

14 hours ago, Hamilton Tracer said:

Speaking of shop manuals, do we have an PDf file on this forum?

I think i have a copy on my laptop at home. Send me a DM as a reminder.i will be back home in 2 days, on a roadtrip right now.

[RaYzerman]

I'll speak as one who does his own work on the various motorycles I've owned, plus worked on many friends' bikes.  If you have mechanical ability, all the better, and you're not gaining much by your service guy doing your first oil change.... nor are you voiding any warranty.  You could ask what all they are going to do at that first service..... usually it's oil change and TB sync (maybe) and steering head torque verification.  TB sync will involve some disassembly and time.

The dealer was the one who uncrated the bike and installed the front wheel, windshield, etc.  I've seen some awful ones, loose fasterners, screws missing (on FJR's).  No reason you can't go over the bike yourself and see that all was put together properly.

I've done three valve checks on Tracers, lots of plastic and tank to remove, etc. and it will take most of a day.  More if you need shims and have to adjust, a couple of special tools.  A friend near me took her MT-09 to her local guy her and her hubby use.... 7 hrs. labor for a valve check and oil change.  Charged her extra $150 for valve cover gaskets, which we all know do not need to be replaced.

Another thing y'all wanna think about is, if you've got the facility and tools, hold a regional tech day where a few of you can learn to do stuff.  I've been to several for FJR's and mostly I'm the knowlegeable one, have tool box will travel, lol, but there are some others who are good too.

I haven't found very many good service mechanics, but maybe you have one.  I'm all for DIY if you're anywhere capable.  None of my bikes over the years have ever been to a dealer.

[2and3cylinders]

Since I bought my 15 in 16, it's been back to the dealer twice; once for the bar riser recall, and for the CCT TSB.  I asked if they'd give me the parts and I'd do it, then return the old parts.  Haha...  The tech who did the bar riser replacement couldn't even tighten the bottom nut properly or install the riser caps correctly.  The cam chain death rattle came back within 3k miles, and that was after the the V2 CCT.  I put in an APE MCCT and not issues since.  After a valve shim replacement and cam reinstall, I adjust the cam chain by ear.  I have checked the valve lash 4 times.  At 20k miles ALL 12 were VERY tight.  Checked again in 10k and all was well.  In another 10k, 2 intake & 3 exhaust were tight!  In another 10k all were good but it's been another 15k+ and I'm going to check this winter.

TB sync has never been far off, and I can check it (but not adjust it) in 10 minutes by only pulling out from the side of the frame the vacuum line extensions I attached to the ports of the TBs.

My only recurring issue is my fastest red eats chains.  Yes I maybe let it go too long between adjustments but I lube diligently.  I use the 2nd highest spec quality Japanese chains; although the last 3 chains have been 520 not 525.  I don't think that's it though...

 

[RaYzerman]

Best keep chains on the max or loose side, seems to me they last longer that way.... doesn't matter which bike.

[DavidS]

On 12/23/2023 at 10:03 AM, betoney said:

On any brand new bike, I have always done the first oil change within the first 100 miles and then again at 1000 miles - personal preference, your's may vary.

 

I agree, on my tracer 900 GT I just drove it home and changed the oil. Of course it was winter in Seattle, so I wasn't going to do any long rides in that weather, but I got a good deal on the bike.........

After that I change the oil every 3000 miles or so....

[2and3cylinders]

2 hours ago, RaYzerman said:

Best keep chains on the max or loose side, seems to me they last longer that way.... doesn't matter which bike.

Other than my 72 BMW R75/5 Toaster Tank, all of my bikes have been chain drive. So I've personally changed a lot of chains and sprockets over the last 50 years and likely 500,000+ miles.

And while from day 1 I've ignored the ridiculously tight Yamahaha chain tension spec (and inversely, IMO, have gone 15% lower than the insanely high rear axle nut "torque "), it seems no matter how loose or tight I set it, I can't get much more than 14~15k miles out of one (even exclusive of the OEM chain).

On all my other bikes going back 20 years, 20 to even 25k miles was the norm.  Even on big V twins.  And I'm OCD about chain tension and sprocket alignment.

Is it just me, my right wrist and the CP3?

[OZVFR]

1 hour ago, 2and3cylinders said:

Other than my 72 BMW R75/5 Toaster Tank, all of my bikes have been chain drive. So I've personally changed a lot of chains and sprockets over the last 50 years and likely 500,000+ miles.

And while from day 1 I've ignored the ridiculously tight Yamahaha chain tension spec (and inversely, IMO, have gone 15% lower than the insanely high rear axle nut "torque "), it seems no matter how loose or tight I set it, I can't get much more than 14~15k miles out of one (even exclusive of the OEM chain).

On all my other bikes going back 20 years, 20 to even 25k miles was the norm.  Even on big V twins.  And I'm OCD about chain tension and sprocket alignment.

Is it just me, my right wrist and the CP3?

That's called experience my friend, nobody who knows anything about bikes would have followed the stock chain tension.

I ditched the stock chain when I bought the bike with 7,000km on it, replaced it with an RK heavy duty X ring one and kept the sprockets, now has 29,000km and I've only had to adjust it once after around 1,500km after installation.

I do ride the bike pretty hard and sometimes carrying lots of weight on long trips. I'm not one who you could consider a fastidious chain maintenance person either. I have often (better get a paper bag ready 2and3) done 2,000km trips without lubricating.

I've used the same chain on the last three bikes with good results, My VFR I sold with 36,000km on the chain which was still perfect and only adjusted twice in that time.

Good quality chains are worth it.

Edited December 27, 2023 by OZVFR

[johnmark101]

I had bad experiences with shops early in my ownership experiences.  So now I get the shop manuals and do my own work.  

One mechanic told me my ECU (older Kawasaki) was toast and I needed a new one at $1100 bucks!!!  This was after they did the valve clearances and a couple weeks later the bike started cutting out when riding and finally died and would not start.  I took the bike home in the back of my truck and after pulling everything apart down to the throttle bodies I found a wire harness misrouted and pinched.  It was shorting to ground.  Some electrical tape and correct routing the bike started and ran perfectly.  They had created the issue while performing the valve clearances and then misdiagnosed the problem!!

Doing my own work gives me peace of mind and saves me a lot of money!!!