Roughness and noise at low throttle openings

[Ride365]

Damn.....I'm almost 52 and on par to retire at 57, at least that's the plan depending on whatever tomfoolery keeps happening in the world.

[Wintersdark]

On 7/28/2023 at 1:49 AM, dazzler24 said:

How many Kms did you have on her Winter?  And it made a significant/noticeable difference?  Apologies if you've mentioned it elsewhere.

~35000kms or so.  It made a *huge* difference, way more than I expected it to.

The clutch rattle in neutral when the clutch is engaged vs. disengaged is significantly muted (but still exists; this isn't a cure for the noisy clutch in neutral).

The removal of just a couple mm of driveline lash has an unbelievably huge impact in ridability - I hadn't realized how bad it had gotten as it'd been a long time coming.  The problem is that the play from the basket takes significant force to move, so it doesn't happen at the same time the normal free play in the driveline gets eaten up.  Instead, it creates a... Thunk? when you switch from hard engine breaking to throttle and back that you feel in the right footpeg.  That's gone entirely.  There's a shuddering sort of noise/feeling/vibration under light maintenance throttle and low rpm - also completely gone.  There's a weird sort of noise under deceleration via engine breaking that's completely gone as well - there's a video about replacing the clutch basket that illustrates this:

But really what's unexpected but ENORMOUS to me is how much *tighter* the whole driveline feels now.  On and off throttle, it feels like a brand new bike.  I honestly didn't realize how loose it had gotten, but I hadn't gone even a block until I stopped in pure amazement, and just experimented with starting and stopping for a bit.  

It's really hard to describe, because when I try to explain it, I feel like it sounds like "Oh like when you tighten a chain" but no, nothing like tight vs. loose chain.  The lag time due to the resistance of the bumpers inside the basket really make it a separate thing.

I was worried, honestly, as $400 is a lot of money for me to spend to (hopefully) fix a problem that's not even REALLY a problem, because the bike rides "fine" with the old clutch basket, right?  But wow.  I wasn't aware of how much of a difference there was between my bike in 2019 when new and right before I changed that basket.  $400 was VERY well spent.

Also, changing it was actually pretty fun, and a good chance to really inspect the clutch innards - which where absolutely fine.

[Wintersdark]

Regarding the basket itself once you've got it out, and the "can't feel any play" reported by people earlier:

Check the video above at 3:13 to see it in practice.  Mine was worse than his, 3mm of movement.

But holding it in your hand, you can't get enough torque to see the play.  I can do it by putting the gear into my vice (with nice soft rubber pads, of course) AND using a breaker bar to put a lot of torque on the basket, but it's very tough to move them.  Once moved, it stays moved, though, doesn't bounce back. 

It's that, I think, that causes the real problem.  That getting it to move requires a bunch of force, so it's a second chunk of play that happens abruptly once load is already on the driveline. 

So much smoother running now.  

[dazzler24]

On 7/30/2023 at 12:39 PM, Wintersdark said:

~35000kms or so.  It made a *huge* difference, way more than I expected it to.

The clutch rattle in neutral when the clutch is engaged vs. disengaged is significantly muted (but still exists; this isn't a cure for the noisy clutch in neutral).

The removal of just a couple mm of driveline lash has an unbelievably huge impact in ridability - I hadn't realized how bad it had gotten as it'd been a long time coming.  The problem is that the play from the basket takes significant force to move, so it doesn't happen at the same time the normal free play in the driveline gets eaten up.  Instead, it creates a... Thunk? when you switch from hard engine breaking to throttle and back that you feel in the right footpeg.  That's gone entirely.  There's a shuddering sort of noise/feeling/vibration under light maintenance throttle and low rpm - also completely gone.  There's a weird sort of noise under deceleration via engine breaking that's completely gone as well - there's a video about replacing the clutch basket that illustrates this:

But really what's unexpected but ENORMOUS to me is how much *tighter* the whole driveline feels now.  On and off throttle, it feels like a brand new bike.  I honestly didn't realize how loose it had gotten, but I hadn't gone even a block until I stopped in pure amazement, and just experimented with starting and stopping for a bit.  

It's really hard to describe, because when I try to explain it, I feel like it sounds like "Oh like when you tighten a chain" but no, nothing like tight vs. loose chain.  The lag time due to the resistance of the bumpers inside the basket really make it a separate thing.

I was worried, honestly, as $400 is a lot of money for me to spend to (hopefully) fix a problem that's not even REALLY a problem, because the bike rides "fine" with the old clutch basket, right?  But wow.  I wasn't aware of how much of a difference there was between my bike in 2019 when new and right before I changed that basket.  $400 was VERY well spent.

Also, changing it was actually pretty fun, and a good chance to really inspect the clutch innards - which where absolutely fine.

 

On 7/30/2023 at 12:45 PM, Wintersdark said:

Regarding the basket itself once you've got it out, and the "can't feel any play" reported by people earlier:

Check the video above at 3:13 to see it in practice.  Mine was worse than his, 3mm of movement.

But holding it in your hand, you can't get enough torque to see the play.  I can do it by putting the gear into my vice (with nice soft rubber pads, of course) AND using a breaker bar to put a lot of torque on the basket, but it's very tough to move them.  Once moved, it stays moved, though, doesn't bounce back. 

It's that, I think, that causes the real problem.  That getting it to move requires a bunch of force, so it's a second chunk of play that happens abruptly once load is already on the driveline. 

So much smoother running now.  

Thank you!  Excellent description and video.

These things can kind of develop over time and you the user/rider doesn't notice the changes sneaking up over that time.  A bit like your kids growing up - you don't necessarily notice the changes slowly happening but someone who hasn't seen them for a while sure does - if you know what I mean with the analogy.

A couple of things you've mentioned in the 'before' scenario I'm sure I'm experiencing but I want to be very sure.

I'm going to have to pay more attention now to the bike in the described conditions before shelling out for this fix.

Thanks for the write up. 👍

[2and3cylinders]

My clutch is noisy as he'll.  Have to check when I installed a 16 XSR slip/assist clutch but probably 40k+ miles ago.  The noise doesn't bother once underway but I have noticed shifting to be getting more difficult but haven't analyzed how, when or why; and usually pass it off to my error rather than a clutch and or transfer issue (worn and tweaked shift forks and shift dogs, erc.).

It's just tough to analyze the swamp during the heat of battle when it's difficult for me to chew gum and walk at the same time.

However, I can manage chewing my Wintermint Orbit while riding to minimize dry mouth.   Like the old Indian (native / indigenous people's) trick of placing a small pebble in the mouth to stimulate salivation.

Now at 60k and wondering if it's time. Regardless that time will have to wait until winder downtime as is other deferred maintenance. 

[Wintersdark]

12 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

My clutch is noisy as he'll.  Have to check when I installed a 16 XSR slip/assist clutch but probably 40k+ miles ago.  The noise doesn't bother once underway but I have noticed shifting to be getting more difficult but haven't analyzed how, when or why; and usually pass it off to my error rather than a clutch and or transfer issue (worn and tweaked shift forks and shift dogs, erc.).

It's just tough to analyze the swamp during the heat of battle when it's difficult for me to chew gum and walk at the same time.

However, I can manage chewing my Wintermint Orbit while riding to minimize dry mouth.   Like the old Indian (native / indigenous people's) trick of placing a small pebble in the mouth to stimulate salivation.

Now at 60k and wondering if it's time. Regardless that time will have to wait until winder downtime as is other deferred maintenance. 

One thing it doesn't change is ease of shifting (though you may have worn clutch plates as well, but... that shouldn't change shifting either, just slip?) but it can make the shifting less "clunky" when you re-engage the clutch and apply power.  The actual change of gears won't be impacted though, as that's (generally) happening with the clutch disengaged.

 

[2and3cylinders]

I often don't use the clutch (disengage it) upshifting, much less often going down but that is what the slip/assist assists with.

Again, I do seem to have trouble with the 2 to 3 speed shift but above that it's usually slick enough.  I can see how lack of damping would make shifts more distinct.

I'm used to my VTR which also is pretty slick but with no slip/assist if you miss it going down, it decels PDQ with those two much bigger jugs.

Have a lighter flywheel which lessens back-torque and speeds spin-up but still you can chirp the rear tires and more with a sloppy downshift...

Not so with my fastest red 15...

 

 

[dazzler24]

After @Wintersdark's excellent appraisal of the issue and his glowing 'after' results I had no alternative ( OK, I did really 😜) but to bite the bullet and have now ordered all the 'bits' from Webike Japan.

Do I have the 'GRONK' as described? After some careful riding analysis based on the earlier data, I believe that I do have the early symptoms.

Honest analysis:-

Is it a real problem for me? No - not really! The bike rides fine!

Could I live with it? - Of course I could!

Do I want to live with it?

Now, that's the real question.  For the OCD in me - the answer is if it can be better or improved then NO.

What tipped it for me in the end was the currently favourable exchange rate with the Japanese Yen.

The bits have shipped on a slow boat from Japan (much cheaper and I'm in no hurry) so I will either do the job at my next oil change or will at least check the slop in the rubber dampers then and if within specs I will at least have the parts for when it inevitably becomes a problem down the track.

[Wintersdark]

21 hours ago, dazzler24 said:

After @Wintersdark's excellent appraisal of the issue and his glowing 'after' results I had no alternative ( OK, I did really 😜) but to bite the bullet and have now ordered all the 'bits' from Webike Japan.

Do I have the 'GRONK' as described? After some careful riding analysis based on the earlier data, I believe that I do have the early symptoms.

Honest analysis:-

Is it a real problem for me? No - not really! The bike rides fine!

Could I live with it? - Of course I could!

Do I want to live with it?

Now, that's the real question.  For the OCD in me - the answer is if it can be better or improved then NO.

Exactly.  I don't like it but get why Yamaha isn't covering it with the warranty, as the bike does still ride fine, but it's.... Clattery and loose.  And to me, it feels cheap and poorly made, particularly once you start paying attention to it.  And the more attention you pay to it, the more obvious and annoying it feels.

Psychological? To an extent sure, it's real but it's not actually important.  

But a side benefit - if you decide to sell, the bike sounds and feels WAY better once it's done. 

[dazzler24]

7 minutes ago, Wintersdark said:

Exactly.  I don't like it but get why Yamaha isn't covering it with the warranty, as the bike does still ride fine, but it's.... Clattery and loose.  And to me, it feels cheap and poorly made, particularly once you start paying attention to it.  And the more attention you pay to it, the more obvious and annoying it feels.

Psychological? To an extent sure, it's real but it's not actually important.  

But a side benefit - if you decide to sell, the bike sounds and feels WAY better once it's done. 

Yes, considering the number of reported cases out there I'm sure that there are many more that have the issue in varying degrees but either don't realise it or care enough about it to be worth their time and or money.  And fair enough.  To each their own.

[2and3cylinders]

My question is if it can occur at only 35k km (21k mi), how soon can it re-occur after replacement???

Will a billet basket preclude or significantly extend the runtime, or is it the quality of the damper doughnuts?

If I was in better shape and had more time, I could do 20k miles in a season and a half.

This issue ccould then get very tiresome and costly to stay on top of.

[Ride365]

There is nothing about owning/riding motorcycles that is cost effective and cheap.

[kilo3]

2 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

My question is if it can occur at only 35k km (21k mi), how soon can it re-occur after replacement???

Will a billet basket preclude or significantly extend the runtime, or is it the quality of the damper doughnuts?

If I was in better shape and had more time, I could do 20k miles in a season and a half.

This issue ccould then get very tiresome and costly to stay on top of.

No one knows yet, for either the hinson route or the updated basket. Not enough miles on either to say definitively.

[2and3cylinders]

31 minutes ago, kilo3 said:

No one knows yet, for either the hinson route or the updated basket. Not enough miles on either to say definitively.

I can't remember the name of our super high mileage guy. I don't envy him though. Hes in great shape, for his age.

Bet he has the original basket 

[2and3cylinders]

2 hours ago, Ride365 said:

There is nothing about owning/riding motorcycles that is cost effective and cheap.

I strongly disagree

Even in today's market.

If you know what you're doing You can have a very slick and cost effective rat bike

Even as near back in 2017 it was better but when it's your only means of transportation except on bad winter days, it is The Way.

You'd think in 1972 it was even cheaper but our wages made it harder, as they couldn't produce enough to lessen demand and lower prices.