Roughness and noise at low throttle openings

[Wintersdark]

Yeah, model wise here there's a CA model and a non-CA model, but I'm thinking that's a California model vs. regular one, not Canada vs US - this is looking up via Yamaha's OEM parts finder. But they definitely could be Canada vs US models. With that said, there's definitely been software differences in the past between US and Canadian models even when the hardware is identical.  Different fueling (likely to suit different environmental regulations), speed limit regulators in the US FJ's.  Also, mine will engage cruise control with no upper limit on speed, but (I've heard) the US models have an upper limit for cruise control.  Or maybe mine's just "broken"?  I've had mine locked at 200kph.  Eh, not an important question now, and well off topic, but just something I'm curious about. I've often wondered in these cases, when you replace the ECU, what does it come with?   

Anyways, thanks a bunch for your time and advice there.  Even if the gronk is ultimately harmless (I feel it can only get worse, though, and it HAS gotten worse over the time I've owned the bike) it's a very unpleasant feeling and frankly I'd sooner spend the money (stupid, useless warranty) to try to get rid of it.

[Northern900]

On 11/5/2021 at 1:11 PM, bwringer said:

Congrats on your GRONK-free experience!

I don't think this is a safety issue, and it's not really causing any undue wear. It's just annoying as hell. So it wouldn't become a recall.

I don't know how frequent this is, but maybe it's not enough bikes to warrant an official TSB. It's also very hard to describe or define, and constantly gets confused with normal clutch-out-neutral-rattle as we see over and over in this thread.

We need Yamaha to make and sell lots more bikes with this engine so that everyone has a chance to see and hear at least a few others and better understand what's normal. I think isolation causes a lot of undue anxiety for this and many other motorcycles.

 

 

 

Got it; sounds like you're a GRONK-er AND a rattler.

Changing the outer clutch basket CAN make a difference in the rattle when the clutch is out in neutral. But it may or may not, depending on how bad your rattle was, how good your ears are, and general tolerance stack-up.

It honestly didn't make much difference in mine, and to my widely experienced ear, I've never once felt the rattle was a concern. I also suspect that the rattle varies quite a bit due to the way tolerances might stack up, and of course tolerance for the rattle depends on the rider and his or her ears.

Over on the V-Strom forum, there are a lot of refugees from dry clutch BMWs, and every last one of them seems to panic when their clutch rattles and the rear wheel spins when running on the centerstand.

More than once I've solved an "OMFG MAH BIKE IZ DED" complaint by placing one finger on a clutch lever that's rattling and dancing around...

 

Anyway, to determine parts compatibility, visit one of the many online parts sellers and do a little sleuthing.

Here's the clutch fiche for a local online parts shoppe near me (VERY handy!):

https://www.onlinecycleparts.com/oemparts/a/yam/546a26ccf87002164cb2801f/clutch

You'll notice that #1 shows two part numbers. The first is crossed out, and the part number has been superceded to a new part number. This indicates that it's a direct replacement.

Primary Driven Gear Comp
1RC-16150-00-00 (old)
B7N-16150-00-00 (new)

To cross-reference a part number, back out to the Yamaha Motorcycle Parts page, and paste it in on the right:

https://www.onlinecycleparts.com/oemparts/c/yamaha_motorcycle/parts

Thusly:

https://www.onlinecycleparts.com/oemparts/partsearch/yamaha_motorcycle?partsearch=b7n-16150-00-00

Then, you can click "where used" on the right to see a listing of which models use this part number.

The first listing is for all models (it includes older models where the part was superceded), and the second is for models where it was original (2021 only, in this case).

Click the first "where used" and you'll see that this clutch basket part number appears on the clutch fiches for and is compatible with all CP3 engine models 2014-2021; FZ, FJ, XSR, MT, Niken, and Tracer.

So yes, B7N-16150-00-00 will work with your bike. Since it's a different part number, I'm hoping that it represents an upgrade. However, I have no idea whether this is true. The parts are externally identical down to the casting marks, and the updated bits would be on the inside anyway. And of course Yamaha shares no information.

Rinse and repeat this process for other parts...

 

In my case, there are a couple of large dealers near Indy (Partshark and Online Cycle Parts) that sell parts at a discount online, and allow me to go pick up the parts in person and save shipping. OCP is a little cheaper and closer, so I used them for the basket.

But when I did the slipper upgrade, I used Partshark because they had done the research and put together a kit with a nice discount.

Both order their parts from the same Yamaha warehouses; dealers generally do not stock any parts.

 

Unless your clutch plates are damaged by abuse, it's extremely unlikely that you would actually need new clutch plates, springs, or other parts.

If your bike has a slipper clutch stock, then there are three rubber cushions in the hub that I would replace any time it's apart.

And of course, you will need a clutch cover gasket and a new nut. The nut is 90179-20010-00 and is in the clutch fiche, and the clutch cover gasket is on the "Crankcase cover 1" fiche, 1RC-15461-00-00 . These appear to be common to all CP3 engines.

FWIW, I always order an extra nut and extra gasket. If I screw up, I'm covered, if not, I've got a spare for later. YMMV. They're cheap, and I've found a little paranoia really saves the day sometimes.

So, I took mine all apart. A fairly simple operation as I do have an impact. I can’t tell though, if the clutch basket rubbers are worn though, at least not by hand. I shall try putting it in a vice and gently applying force to see if I have any play there. But, my issue with the bike sounds exactly like what you experienced. So, am pretty sure that an updated basket will solve the issue. I, like yourself, would not trust bolts in that situation, so would rather just replace rather than risk catastrophic failure. It would be nice though, if I could find play in the gear/basket. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Northern900

[bwringer]

Mine took a pretty significant amount of force to get the basket part to rotate a little independent of the gear part. I was barely able to make it happen by hand cradling the gear against my body with one hand, so perhaps clamping the gear part somehow (my vise is nowhere near big enough) and gently using a pry bar would do it. Or the other way around, depending on what you come up with.

I'd hate to risk damaging the old one, anyway. Perhaps one day we'll find a friendly machinist who could rebuild them for less that it costs to buy new.

[skipperT]

On 11/4/2021 at 1:35 PM, Buggy Nate said:

What’s the go here mate? I’ve never damaged an input or output shaft with an impact driver?

Is it just a matter of some people not breaking the loctite’s hold with heat first?

Could be. Sorry for the late reply. There’s been at least 2 bulletins on this subject, but they’re a bit vague on the why. All I know is that any time a slipper clutch is installed it’s extra dangerous to use an impact to loosen because of the way the blows from the impact move the components around as they are loosened, if that makes any sense. It may have more to do with the nut being staked then anything else, as at least one poster on this forum damaged the output shaft when replacing his drive sprocket. He used an impact to loosen, but may not have cleared the staked nut sufficiently before loosening… hard to say. 

@bwringer (didn’t forget about your question)

-Skip 

Edited November 19, 2021 by skipperT

[bwringer]

"The nut is made to turn faster than the slipper clutch will allow" makes zero sense, at least in relation to an FJ/Tracer clutch. You can't even access the nut until the pressure plate, along with all the slipper clutch bits, plates, etc. are out of the way. There's no slipper mechanism even involved in removing the nut because the bits are all lying on the bench. Maybe this is different on other bikes like the YZF-R6 mentioned?

In other words, if you could access the nut with the clutch assembled, then yes, it's an obviously terrible idea to just attack the poor thing with an impact. Please don't do that.

In any case, no, you can't just bang away with an impact on this or any similar mechanism (like the sprocket nut); you still have to restrain the parts, you still have to unstake the nut, and you still have to heat the nut to soften the thread locking compound (high strength "red" Loctite can and will gall threads). And you have to use the impact in very short judicious bursts.

All that done, using an impact to loosen the nut is far less hazardous to parts and skin than using a locking tool and a huge breaker bar. When tightening, achieving the proper torque using a holding tool and a torque wrench requires careful planning to ensure you don't capsize the bike.

Dunno... I guess I consider the above very obvious, but maybe it isn't obvious to hacks in a hurry, hence the bulletin.

As to why Yamaha made these threads so very fine and exceedingly delicate... I don't know. They're courser and tougher on most bikes.

Edited November 19, 2021 by bwringer

[Northern900]

If you don’t properly heat up and liquify that red loctite before you attack it with an impact, the hard loctite will ‘ball’ up an damage the threads on the shaft as the nut is turned off. Using an impact on such a job is not dangerous as long as you’re careful. 

[piotrek]

On 6/8/2021 at 8:11 PM, kilo3 said:

I already bought the bushings, just waiting for this winter.

Wondering if you'd already done this. I remember you wanted to use polyurethane dampers rather than the Hinson set (rubber I think). Would you have a link where you sourced them?

Thanks

[kilo3]

@piotrek No i didn't because i'm lazy and mainly my wife's stupid pink bike ruined my winter, but that's another story.

I wussed out and bought the updated basket to hopefully be install this winter but who knows at this point.

My plan is/was to replace with the updated basket, then modify the old with the Hinson bushings set as backup.
never did find full poly dampers.

Edited July 24, 2023 by kilo3

[piotrek]

20 hours ago, kilo3 said:

@piotrek No i didn't because i'm lazy and mainly my wife's stupid pink bike ruined my winter, but that's another story. I wussed out and bought the updated basket to hopefully be install this winter but who knows at this point.

My plan is/was to replace with the updated basket, then modify the old with the Hinson bushings set as backup. never did find full poly dampers.

Sounds good. I thought the pink bike project came out quite okay. Hope she's at least riding it. It'd be a shame. 😐

I think I will brave the job with the Hinson dampers. Plan-B sounds unattractive at current prices, but there is no Plan-C, so who knows.

[kilo3]

1 hour ago, piotrek said:

Sounds good. I thought the pink bike project came out quite okay. Hope she's at least riding it. It'd be a shame. 😐

Every day to work, she gets a lot of head turners when I ride with her.

[Wintersdark]

On 7/24/2023 at 2:48 PM, kilo3 said:

@piotrek No i didn't because i'm lazy and mainly my wife's stupid pink bike ruined my winter, but that's another story.

I wussed out and bought the updated basket to hopefully be install this winter but who knows at this point.

My plan is/was to replace with the updated basket, then modify the old with the Hinson bushings set as backup.
never did find full poly dampers.

As I noted in the "what did you do" thread, I recently swapped out my basket.  Really easy job, and in fact on you can reasonably do in about an hour or two, much less with some experience.  And man, does it ever ride a lot better now.  Shocking how much a little play in the basket causes problems

 

[dazzler24]

4 hours ago, Wintersdark said:

As I noted in the "what did you do" thread, I recently swapped out my basket.  Really easy job, and in fact on you can reasonably do in about an hour or two, much less with some experience.  And man, does it ever ride a lot better now.  Shocking how much a little play in the basket causes problems

 

How many Kms did you have on her Winter?  And it made a significant/noticeable difference?  Apologies if you've mentioned it elsewhere.

[2and3cylinders]

7 hours ago, dazzler24 said:

How many Kms did you have on her Winter?  And it made a significant/noticeable difference?  Apologies if you've mentioned it elsewhere.

Good morning mate.

 I was up 6 hours ago.

On a crazy schedule

How many do you have now?

94961 km

 

[dazzler24]

17 hours ago, 2and3cylinders said:

Good morning mate.

 I was up 6 hours ago.

On a crazy schedule

How many do you have now?

94961 km

 

G'day 2 and 3 - what are you up to when you say you're "on a crazy schedule"?

To answer your question, I'm a very low mileage recreational rider.  Only around 26K kms (16K miles).

Got a ways to catch you 🙂

 

[2and3cylinders]

4 hours ago, dazzler24 said:

G'day 2 and 3 - what are you up to when you say you're "on a crazy schedule"?

To answer your question, I'm a very low mileage recreational rider.  Only around 26K kms (16K miles).

Got a ways to catch you 🙂

 

Hope yall been bonza!

I've always been an early riser.

But SWMBO is the opposite (and spawned 3 of her ilk).

Which means to get along I have had to burn the candle at both ends; which has been VERY tiresome for the last 43 years.

Well, as I'm still not retired, I have construction projects I have to provide field review where the crews start at 6:30 or even 6 in the hot weather.  Which means I must often be there early too to ride up to "inspect", so the workers can either fix errors or know they can proceed the rest of the day/week.

Problem is my body clock consequently gets turned back and I wake up at 4 without an alarm.  Then I don't get to sleep before 11 and usually 12.  Sometimes I get home from hanging in 90+F / 72% H and have to nap by 7 pm. Then I'm up at 11:30 and can't sleep.  It's a vicious cycle.

Winter's aren't much better.  I've been out in -25F & -65 windchill and it used to average 28F before global warming.

Both have contributed to my physical demise as I started in construction in 1970.  I'm really trying to hang on (a pun) for a couple more years, as I'm one of the world's highest paid, not highly paid engineers.