Roughness and noise at low throttle openings

[Wintersdark]

So, I'm figuring I'm just going to replace mine myself, on my own dollar, because the local shops all figure I'm an idiot and want to replace *every single part of the driveline it could be* that isn't covered by the warranty before looking any deeper.  To the tune of $1500 of work I'd be on the hook for.  

*Sighs*

I hate warranties so much for this very reason.  This ALWAYS happens.  It's cheaper to just swallow the $300 bill and get a new basket and dampners.

[Northern900]

Has anyone seen a video on removing and installing the clutch basket?  I am doing this job in the near future, it’s nice to have a video to review beforehand. Especially about removing and replacing the nut. 

[bwringer]

2 hours ago, Northern900 said:

Has anyone seen a video on removing and installing the clutch basket?  I am doing this job in the near future, it’s nice to have a video to review beforehand. Especially about removing and replacing the nut. 

This video below on installing the slipper clutch upgrade covers clutch wrangling, but he doesn't actually remove the basket. However, that bit is easy once you're in there; you just have to bear in mind the wee chain on the back of the clutch basket that runs the oil pump.

He uses hand tools, so it's a good video for folks who don't have an impact wrench. I heated the nut to soften the Loctite then used an impact (the nut hex is 30mm, and it's one-time use). You'll also need that clutch holder tool. I had to do some work with a flap wheel to slim down the sides of the tips of my cheapie clutch tool a bit so they would engage fully with the slots in the clutch hub. And pay attention to the proper torques when re-assembling.

Once everything else is out, wiggle the clutch basket in and out until the bearing and spacer in the center start to pop out a little. Then grab them (gently!) and pull them off the shaft. Now the clutch basket will drop down enough that you can carefully work the chain off the oil pump, disengage the outer gear from the crank gear, and pull it out.

To replace it, hang the chain onto the sprocket on the back of the basket, slide the basket into place, get the chain onto the oil pump sprocket, engage the basket and crank gears, then lift it up to install the spacer and bearing.

I'd strongly recommend getting your mitts on the available manuals. I consulted both the factory manual and the Haynes; both manuals suck in different ways, so it was helpful to have different wording and pictures. The Haynes also included some useful scraps of info pertaining to the XSR clutch parts I was installing. 

The video does contain several mistakes, which he attempts to correct with text added afterwards, so pay careful attention. If you're not installing the slipper clutch, then the most of the mistakes don't matter; just stack everything carefully so that you can put it back exactly the way it came out. Be careful about the outermost plate; it's installed one notch away from the rest.

Also, if you have not yet replaced your clutch cable with the updated version (not sure what year your bike is) this would be a good time to do that.

 

 

[skipperT]

DO NOT use an impact wrench when removing/installing that nut IF a slipper clutch is already installed. YOU WILL destroy the input shaft to the transmission and have to split the cases to repair. 

(Hope that saves someone a big headache)

-Skip

[bwringer]

7 minutes ago, skipperT said:

DO NOT use an impact wrench when removing/installing that nut IF a slipper clutch is already installed. YOU WILL destroy the input shaft to the transmission and have to split the cases to repair. 

(Hope that saves someone a big headache)

-Skip

By the time you've disassembled the clutch to that point, what difference does the slipper clutch make?

You definitely don't want to use an impact to tighten it, true. The threads are very fine. And when removing it, you absolutely need to heat it up to soften the red Loctite, or you can damage those fine threads.

[Buggy Nate]

24 minutes ago, skipperT said:

DO NOT use an impact wrench when removing/installing that nut IF a slipper clutch is already installed. YOU WILL destroy the input shaft to the transmission and have to split the cases to repair. 

(Hope that saves someone a big headache)

-Skip

What’s the go here mate? I’ve never damaged an input or output shaft with an impact driver?

Is it just a matter of some people not breaking the loctite’s hold with heat first?

[Northern900]

That’s good info. Kinda what I figured. I don’t have access to a clutch holder tool. I may try to fabricate something. I do have my old impact, but no compressor big enough to handle it. 
also, I noticed that the oil pump drive chain is quite loose. Is that normal?

[Wintersdark]

So, my GT obviously already has a slipper clutch, and my clutch plates are (well, seem to be anyways) all good - there's no slippage whatsoever.  

However, my clutch is noisy as all hell, and I'm pretty sure those dampers are the problem.  

Should I replace the whole basket?  Or just the dampers?  I've never had need to tuck into a motorcycle clutch before, so it'll be a new job for me.  I'm thinking though that the whole job would be a heck of a lot easier if I'm not taking the inner portion of the basket out and thus never need to disturb the inner staked nut in the first place.

Thoughts?  Someone mentioned there's a new clutch kit that may avoid this problem entirely, too...?  Or where they just talking about the Tracer slipper kit vs. the FJ base kit?

[bwringer]

If you mean it's noisy while idling with the clutch out, leave it alone. That's just how these bikes (and many wet clutch bikes) are.

Carefully read my full description of the GRONK; it only happens while underway at low throttle settings, where you're using only a small amount of engine power to maintain forward motion. The rubber dampers inside the clutch basket (NOT the rubber bits in the hub that are part of the slipper mechanism) allow rotary play between the outer gear of the basket and the inner parts.

These dampers can be replaced, but the process involves carefully machining or drilling the rivets out, then sourcing dampers intended for Yamaha dirtbikes. Some have replaced the rivets with threaded fasteners, but I am not convinced this would be strong enough; there's a very good reason Yamaha chose rivets. Sourcing metric rivets in the US is not easy, and properly setting them takes some specialized equipment.

Anyway, I noticed that there's an updated part number for the 2021 models, so I opted to replace the basket with the new part. Faster, easier, no worries about the strength of the rivets. Time and miles will tell if the dampers inside the new basket are more durable. 

[bwringer]

12 hours ago, Northern900 said:

I noticed that the oil pump drive chain is quite loose. Is that normal?

Yep, that's normal. Timing is not important for this function as it is with a cam chain, so the chain doesn't need a tensioner or any tension to speak of. It's plenty tight enough it won't come off, and plain chains running in clean oil have a nearly infinite lifetime.

[2and3cylinders]

It just dawned on me to ask if this issue is widespread, then why has Yamaha not at least released a TSB to correct it if not a recall?

Knock on plastic, I do not believe my 50k mile 15 (with 16 XSR slip/assist installed about 36k miles ago) has "gronk" or unusual clutch noise.

[Wintersdark]

2 hours ago, bwringer said:

If you mean it's noisy while idling with the clutch out, leave it alone. That's just how these bikes (and many wet clutch bikes) are.

Carefully read my full description of the GRONK; it only happens while underway at low throttle settings, where you're using only a small amount of engine power to maintain forward motion. The rubber dampers inside the clutch basket (NOT the rubber bits in the hub that are part of the slipper mechanism) allow rotary play between the outer gear of the basket and the inner parts.

These dampers can be replaced, but the process involves carefully machining or drilling the rivets out, then sourcing dampers intended for Yamaha dirtbikes. Some have replaced the rivets with threaded fasteners, but I am not convinced this would be strong enough; there's a very good reason Yamaha chose rivets. Sourcing metric rivets in the US is not easy, and properly setting them takes some specialized equipment.

Anyway, I noticed that there's an updated part number for the 2021 models, so I opted to replace the basket with the new part. Faster, easier, no worries about the strength of the rivets. Time and miles will tell if the dampers inside the new basket are more durable. 

Yeah, the noise/vibration underway at low throttle settings is exactly what I'm really irritated by.  But the fix also tends to fix the clutch out noise, no? It's not just noise there, there's significant vibration that is *not* normal to wet clutch bikes (to which I am very, very used to, and while this is my first CP3, I own a CP2 bike currently and previously owned another for 20k, and it never did anything like that).  There's obviously a great deal of driveline play going on.

My question is, how do you go about determining which parts you need and which are compatible?  I mean, I assume if you can use the 2021 clutch on an FJ, then you definitely can on a Tracer, but lets assume you're local shop guys are completely useless and will only order specific part numbers you provide and there's no returns there, what parts do you order?  

Is there a single kit that's just the whole deal, or do you basically have to order everything on the page?  

Edited November 5, 2021 by Wintersdark

[bwringer]

1 hour ago, 2and3cylinders said:

It just dawned on me to ask if this issue is widespread, then why has Yamaha not at least released a TSB to correct it if not a recall?

Knock on plastic, I do not believe my 50k mile 15 (with 16 XSR slip/assist installed about 36k miles ago) has "gronk" or unusual clutch noise.

Congrats on your GRONK-free experience!

I don't think this is a safety issue, and it's not really causing any undue wear. It's just annoying as hell. So it wouldn't become a recall.

I don't know how frequent this is, but maybe it's not enough bikes to warrant an official TSB. It's also very hard to describe or define, and constantly gets confused with normal clutch-out-neutral-rattle as we see over and over in this thread.

We need Yamaha to make and sell lots more bikes with this engine so that everyone has a chance to see and hear at least a few others and better understand what's normal. I think isolation causes a lot of undue anxiety for this and many other motorcycles.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Wintersdark said:

Yeah, the noise/vibration underway at low throttle settings is exactly what I'm really irritated by.  But the fix also tends to fix the clutch out noise, no? It's not just noise there, there's significant vibration that is *not* normal to wet clutch bikes (to which I am very, very used to, and while this is my first CP3, I own a CP2 bike currently and previously owned another for 20k, and it never did anything like that).  There's obviously a great deal of driveline play going on.

My question is, how do you go about determining which parts you need and which are compatible?  I mean, I assume if you can use the 2021 clutch on an FJ, then you definitely can on a Tracer, but lets assume you're local shop guys are completely useless and will only order specific part numbers you provide and there's no returns there, what parts do you order?  

Is there a single kit that's just the whole deal, or do you basically have to order everything on the page?  

Got it; sounds like you're a GRONK-er AND a rattler.

Changing the outer clutch basket CAN make a difference in the rattle when the clutch is out in neutral. But it may or may not, depending on how bad your rattle was, how good your ears are, and general tolerance stack-up.

It honestly didn't make much difference in mine, and to my widely experienced ear, I've never once felt the rattle was a concern. I also suspect that the rattle varies quite a bit due to the way tolerances might stack up, and of course tolerance for the rattle depends on the rider and his or her ears.

Over on the V-Strom forum, there are a lot of refugees from dry clutch BMWs, and every last one of them seems to panic when their clutch rattles and the rear wheel spins when running on the centerstand.

More than once I've solved an "OMFG MAH BIKE IZ DED" complaint by placing one finger on a clutch lever that's rattling and dancing around...

 

Anyway, to determine parts compatibility, visit one of the many online parts sellers and do a little sleuthing.

Here's the clutch fiche for a local online parts shoppe near me (VERY handy!):

https://www.onlinecycleparts.com/oemparts/a/yam/546a26ccf87002164cb2801f/clutch

You'll notice that #1 shows two part numbers. The first is crossed out, and the part number has been superceded to a new part number. This indicates that it's a direct replacement.

Primary Driven Gear Comp
1RC-16150-00-00 (old)
B7N-16150-00-00 (new)

To cross-reference a part number, back out to the Yamaha Motorcycle Parts page, and paste it in on the right:

https://www.onlinecycleparts.com/oemparts/c/yamaha_motorcycle/parts

Thusly:

https://www.onlinecycleparts.com/oemparts/partsearch/yamaha_motorcycle?partsearch=b7n-16150-00-00

Then, you can click "where used" on the right to see a listing of which models use this part number.

The first listing is for all models (it includes older models where the part was superceded), and the second is for models where it was original (2021 only, in this case).

Click the first "where used" and you'll see that this clutch basket part number appears on the clutch fiches for and is compatible with all CP3 engine models 2014-2021; FZ, FJ, XSR, MT, Niken, and Tracer.

So yes, B7N-16150-00-00 will work with your bike. Since it's a different part number, I'm hoping that it represents an upgrade. However, I have no idea whether this is true. The parts are externally identical down to the casting marks, and the updated bits would be on the inside anyway. And of course Yamaha shares no information.

Rinse and repeat this process for other parts...

 

In my case, there are a couple of large dealers near Indy (Partshark and Online Cycle Parts) that sell parts at a discount online, and allow me to go pick up the parts in person and save shipping. OCP is a little cheaper and closer, so I used them for the basket.

But when I did the slipper upgrade, I used Partshark because they had done the research and put together a kit with a nice discount.

Both order their parts from the same Yamaha warehouses; dealers generally do not stock any parts.

 

Unless your clutch plates are damaged by abuse, it's extremely unlikely that you would actually need new clutch plates, springs, or other parts.

If your bike has a slipper clutch stock, then there are three rubber cushions in the hub that I would replace any time it's apart.

And of course, you will need a clutch cover gasket and a new nut. The nut is 90179-20010-00 and is in the clutch fiche, and the clutch cover gasket is on the "Crankcase cover 1" fiche, 1RC-15461-00-00 . These appear to be common to all CP3 engines.

FWIW, I always order an extra nut and extra gasket. If I screw up, I'm covered, if not, I've got a spare for later. YMMV. They're cheap, and I've found a little paranoia really saves the day sometimes.

Edited November 5, 2021 by bwringer

[Wintersdark]

Ooooh, I really like the "where used" feature of onlinecycleparts!  I've looked through the Yamaha parts websites, but no "where used" functions there.  That's a super useful feature to see what's actually compatible with what.  

The three cushions you're referring to are Part #16 in the Clutch Kit as per here: https://www.onlinecycleparts.com/oemparts/a/yam/5b27c3cb87a8661118e9ffe6/clutch ?

So I'd be looking for (my clutch has not been abused and I'm quite sure I don't need new plates, and the rest of the parts should be reusable):

• Primary Driven Gear Comp B7N-16150-00-00
• Boss, Clutch B90-16371-00-00
• Nut 90179-20010-00 x2 (a spare, and interestingly this is a new part vs. the original for my bike, a 90170-20011-00)
• Absorber 1TD-16178-00-00 x3
• GASKET, CRANKCASE COVER 2 1RC-15461-00-00 x2 (another spare) 

[bwringer]

14 hours ago, Wintersdark said:

The three cushions you're referring to are Part #16 in the Clutch Kit as per here: https://www.onlinecycleparts.com/oemparts/a/yam/5b27c3cb87a8661118e9ffe6/clutch ?

I'm assuming your bike is the 2019 Tracer in that link, meaning it already has a slipper clutch, correct?

And yes, #16 indicates the three cushions I was referring to in a slipper clutch setup. Dang, they're sort of spendy for wee bits of rubber, but it only makes sense to replace them since you're in there. 

But you won't need to replace the "boss", #3. (AKA "clutch hub" to most people) unless it's terribly damaged or worn -- that's a solid lump of metal.

 

The "primary driven gear" is not a solid lump; it's an assembly with eight cushions inside; when these deteriorate, the outer gear is able to rotate relative to the "basket" part, creating the gronk.

It doesn't take much to make a gronk -- mine had maybe 3 or 4mm of play. It's also not a "loose" play; that riveted, sort of flower-shaped piece you can see in the fiche is a fairly strong spring keeping the parts clamped together.

But if you grab the gear part firmly and push and pull to rotate the basket part, you can just barely make it move by hand; it jumps, indicating the rubber dampers inside are worn. You can't make the new part rotate by hand, and if you apply more force with a lever, the dampers immediately absorb the motion and it springs back into position. 

I'm sort of over-describing things here, but hopefully this is useful to someone. I had a tough time finding the information to solve this, so I'm hoping this thread will make things easier for others with a GRONK.

 

Also, FWIW, I am in the US and Wintersdark is in Canada... once in a while there are meaningful differences between US models and those in other countries, so it's worth verifying. In this case, there's little to no chance that clutch parts are different, but for other bits it's possible.

Edited November 6, 2021 by bwringer