Sick of Yamaha

[jthayer09]

@RaYzerman Did you replace the TPS on your FJR? Is the process complicated? Shop manual for the Tracer 9 mentions "calibration" but is that just position alignment? 

Everything is working as it should now, so I suppose whenever symptoms come back that's when I'll order the 2022 SKU and slap it on; recall not pending of course.

[RaYzerman]

FJR's prior to 2016 had a diagnostics screen you could view and set the TPS value... let's call that analog.  Newer ones and I assume new Tracers use OBD.  If you have an OBD reader with an app such as TorquePro, you can view the throttle opening percentage.... not quite the same but all we have, unless you let a dealer set it.  However, don't you have to have the throttle bodies removed to get at the TPS to install and adjust?  Hard to ride to a dealer if you do, lol.

I don't have your service manual, but they said to remove the TB's on the FJR too.  Not true, we could get at the screws with a homemade tool.... but read up your service manual and look at the bike.  Check you have an OBD app that shows you the throttle percentage......

Yes, it is rotational position, so before you replace it, look at the throttle position percentage and make note.  When you install the new one, set it at that or close as you can to it.  A percent either way won't matter much, since there was a range given in the old 'analog' specs.

 

 

[skipperT]

1 hour ago, RaYzerman said:

FJR's prior to 2016 had a diagnostics screen you could view and set the TPS value... let's call that analog.  Newer ones and I assume new Tracers use OBD.  If you have an OBD reader with an app such as TorquePro, you can view the throttle opening percentage.... not quite the same but all we have, unless you let a dealer set it.  However, don't you have to have the throttle bodies removed to get at the TPS to install and adjust?  Hard to ride to a dealer if you do, lol.

I don't have your service manual, but they said to remove the TB's on the FJR too.  Not true, we could get at the screws with a homemade tool.... but read up your service manual and look at the bike.  Check you have an OBD app that shows you the throttle percentage......

Yes, it is rotational position, so before you replace it, look at the throttle position percentage and make note.  When you install the new one, set it at that or close as you can to it.  A percent either way won't matter much, since there was a range given in the old 'analog' specs.

 

 

Thing is, All MY FjR’s are also NOT YCCT. The throttle cables are connected directly to the throttle bodies which then rotate the TPS via the shaft which connects them. Meaning the TPS value sent to the ECM can vary quite a bit and the engine will run. 

NOT so on ANY MY Tracer! The YCCT system is much more sensitive, because it HAS to be - there’s no physical connection between your wrist and throttle plate movement. As such the ole “mark a line across the sensor and line it back up” again technique isn’t gonna cut it. IMHO neither will using a throttle percentage. The APS values have to be in a certain range and so do the TPS values, and they need this to be in relation to themselves as well. One reason why the service manual spec’s are specific numbers: the engineers have figured it out ahead of time, and that’s why the range is so specific and critical to be accurate  

YMMV. Some may have gotten lucky with a replacement using “other methods” but there’s no substitute for precise measurements and adjustments following the book.

-Skip

[skipperT]

On 3/3/2024 at 7:43 PM, jthayer09 said:

. So clearly they know it's an issue but there's no recall yet? Apparently you can just plug the 2022+ TPS sensor into a 2021 model and it's fine, but why should I have to drop $75-$100 for a manufacturer defect? I'm hoping a recall comes this season or y'know... the thread title is very applicable.

 

 

@jthayer09 Only a “defect” in your, and other peoples, opinions. 

An updated part number, is simply that - an updated part number. It also doesn’t mean that there’s a “blanket” problem with every MT or MTT 09 that’s been produced from 2021 forward. Yamaha may have simply switched vendors, or maybe they did redesign it, or maybe they made the 2023 GT+ sensors work in place of the sensors for all bikes that used a similar part in 2021 and 2022 models. So it makes sense for them to offer only one part that works for everybody, not 6 different parts for 6 models? 
Only Yamaha knows. The rest is just speculation. 

on that note, I’ve seen plenty of examples that are just fine and have no issues and no DTC’’s.
This doesn’t qualify as a major issue IMHO. More of “something to be aware of…”

-Skip

Edited March 5 by skipperT

[jthayer09]

1 hour ago, skipperT said:

@jthayer09 Only a “defect” in your, and other peoples, opinions. 

An updated part number, is simply that - an updated part number. It also doesn’t mean that there’s a “blanket” problem with every MT or MTT 09 that’s been produced from 2021 forward. Yamaha may have simply switched vendors, or maybe they did redesign it, or maybe they made the 2023 GT+ sensors work in place of the sensors for all bikes that used a similar part in 2021 and 2022 models. So it makes sense for them to offer only one part that works for everybody, not 6 different parts for 6 models? 
Only Yamaha knows. The rest is just speculation. 

on that note, I’ve seen plenty of examples that are just fine and have no issues and no DTC’’s.
This doesn’t qualify as a major issue IMHO. More of “something to be aware of…”

-Skip

It is my opinion, but it is also my professional opinion. I work in supply chain ops, specifically in inventory management, planning, and production. An updated part number is not "simply that". I've never worked with or seen an ERP system where a SKU # would change with a vendor switch; vendor/producer is tied to lot code for traceability & compliance. An updated SKU # should only change if a new bill of materials were made to represent materials change to produce a new SKU # with the same previous design, OR - as you pointed out - an actual redesign occurred. SKU # coding would also have some way to represent what change actually occurred.

The part for the 2021 model year (B3L-85885-00-00) only existed for 2 years and was only put on 3 motorcycles: 2020-21 R1, 2021 MT09, and 2021 Tracer 9. That seems odd to put research and development into a critical component only to have it exist in such limited capacity and for such a limited run, no?

This is the same company that has bolts like 90109-08170-00 that has been in use since 2008 and is still used on today's models.

I think I'm missing your point regarding 2023 GT+ sensors working in place of 2021 and 2022 model sensors. The 2022 part is also used on the 2023 and 2024 bikes; across all CP3 models and the R1.

The short operational lifespan of part # B3L-85885-00-00, is sus as hell. Why did they spend money on R&D for a new part for 2022-current year if the 2021 part was perfectly fine? Also, unless something has changed greatly in Yamaha part codes recently this isn't actually speculation at all. The # change from 2021 to 2022-onwards is B3L-85885-00-00 to B3L-85885-01-00. The only #s that changed are the design code, there was a correction or modification to the original part design. Yamaha's engineers are smart, they know they goofed and properly redesigned the part to work as originally intended. Question is: will Yamaha corporate admit and own it?
 

[RaYzerman]

Skipper's points are valid for throttle by wire, and while running, there is also the APS (accelerator position sensor), similar in design to the TPS.  That in conjunction with the TPS lets the ECU know where things are so it can set the idle speed, etc.  However, the TPS is replaced when the engine is not running, i.e., throttle position is at zero.  Whether you're using OBD or the Yamaha dealer's computer, this is where you set the TPS position/reading/throttle percentage.  No worries! 

The APS can also be set, but I'm not sure an OBD reader can even see it.  In that case, need dealer computer.

Just another point, don't know if this is a problem (it was on Gen1/2 FJR's), but there are two MAP sensors (intake air pressure).  Both have vacuum  hoses and an electrical connector.  The vacuum hoses must be clear and no waxy crud build-up on the vacuum nipples of the sensors.  That can cause idling issues and some performance off idle.. just saying, while you're in there, check they are clear.

Edited March 5 by RaYzerman

[skipperT]

1 hour ago, RaYzerman said:

Skipper's points are valid for throttle by wire, and while running, there is also the APS (accelerator position sensor), similar in design to the TPS.  That in conjunction with the TPS lets the ECU know where things are so it can set the idle speed, etc.  However, the TPS is replaced when the engine is not running, i.e., throttle position is at zero.  Whether you're using OBD or the Yamaha dealer's computer, this is where you set the TPS position/reading/throttle percentage.  No worries! 

The APS can also be set, but I'm not sure an OBD reader can even see it.  In that case, need dealer computer.

Just another point, don't know if this is a problem (it was on Gen1/2 FJR's), but there are two MAP sensors (intake air pressure).  Both have vacuum  hoses and an electrical connector.  The vacuum hoses must be clear and no waxy crud build-up on the vacuum nipples of the sensors.  That can cause idling issues and some performance off idle.. just saying, while you're in there, check they are 

do you know the reason for 2 MAP sensors? One is used in place of a cylinder ID so that a camshaft sensor isn’t needed. 

Btw a TPS sensor is never “replaced” while the engine is or is not running - the sensor input and output is always needed by the ECM, in addition to CKP and MAP in order for the engine to run  

-S

Edited March 5 by skipperT

[skipperT]

9 hours ago, jthayer09 said:

It is my opinion, but it is also my professional opinion. I work in supply chain ops, specifically in inventory management, planning, and production. An updated part number is not "simply that". I've never worked with or seen an ERP system where a SKU # would change with a vendor switch; vendor/producer is tied to lot code for traceability & compliance. An updated SKU # should only change if a new bill of materials were made to represent materials change to produce a new SKU # with the same previous design, OR - as you pointed out - an actual redesign occurred. SKU # coding would also have some way to represent what change actually occurred.

The part for the 2021 model year (B3L-85885-00-00) only existed for 2 years and was only put on 3 motorcycles: 2020-21 R1, 2021 MT09, and 2021 Tracer 9. That seems odd to put research and development into a critical component only to have it exist in such limited capacity and for such a limited run, no?

This is the same company that has bolts like 90109-08170-00 that has been in use since 2008 and is still used on today's models.

I think I'm missing your point regarding 2023 GT+ sensors working in place of 2021 and 2022 model sensors. The 2022 part is also used on the 2023 and 2024 bikes; across all CP3 models and the R1.

The short operational lifespan of part # B3L-85885-00-00, is sus as hell. Why did they spend money on R&D for a new part for 2022-current year if the 2021 part was perfectly fine? Also, unless something has changed greatly in Yamaha part codes recently this isn't actually speculation at all. The # change from 2021 to 2022-onwards is B3L-85885-00-00 to B3L-85885-01-00. The only #s that changed are the design code, there was a correction or modification to the original part design. Yamaha's engineers are smart, they know they goofed and properly redesigned the part to work as originally intended. Question is: will Yamaha corporate admit and own it?
 

I don’t think you missed my point- we’re saying the same thing.  I didn’t articulate it the same way but my point was that Yamaha makes parts “backwards compatible” and lets you know by a slight change in part number.

A good example of this is the 5GH-13440 oil filter. (I think we’re up to a -80 or -81 by now?)

This filter with a -20 part number was introduced back in 2006 because the new R6 design requires a slightly shorter oil filter to fit behind the gear shift linkage. At the time there were (and still to this day) two types of a 5GH spin-on oil filter: 5GH-13440-00 and 5GH-13440-20. The only difference was that a -20 is shorter than the -00. 
(Tracers use the same filter but it was a 5GH-13440-60 by that time IIRC.) At some point over the years I realized that the filters are now made by Denso. Were they back in 2005 or 6? I honestly can’t remember. I also don’t recall if a part number change has happened at the same time as a design change (new or changed engine design?) or a vendor/manufacturer change?

But a Yamaha 2008 R6 owner can use the same oil filter that a 2024 GT+ owner uses. 

You want to replace the TPS sensor on your 2021 model Tracer but you can only order the new p/n for the GT+. Design change? vendor change? Improved part? Only Yamaha knows for sure. 

I hope some of this makes sense. 
-S

[RaYzerman]

Let's clarify a couple of things.... the only way technically to set the TPS angle is with the Yamaha diagnostic tool, and the range is 11-21.  FJR similar.  This is done with the engine off.  Tracer GT manual says you're doing that with the throttle bodies removed and diagnostic tool hooked up, which is quite fine.  Bottom line, engine off, no influences.  You can roll the throttle and watch it scroll up to higher readings, and there is even a high end check one can do, but is ignored on throttle by wire.   Such check is noted for the APS.

I only mention the OBD reader as about the only thing you have as a shade-tree mechanic, and it does not display the real number, just a percentage.  So, assuming the original TPS was set correctly at the factory, one can get in that 11-21 range by checking what the OBD says, then set the new TPS the same.  You'll be in range, no worries.

Once you start the engine, TPS and APS positions are fed to the ECU which then determines the idle speed.  This can fluctuate or "hunt" depending on some other parameters, but bottom line, the throttle moves.  So engine must be off to do the initial TPS setting, again as the service manual implies..

Let's say the initial TPS setting is at a typical 14 for demonstration purposes.  The problem is, say you notice unusual behaviours after some mileage, there is wear occurring inside the TPS at zero (the 14 setting) to low throttle openings.  Again due to the contact fingers wearing into the resistor board.  TPS's and APS's are very hard to diagnose, but with a good ohmmeter or the Yamaha diagnostic tool, slowly turning the throttle, you might be able to see it skip... e.g., 14, 15, 16...20 instead of a smooth scrolling up.  This skipping is what causes faulty signals to the ECU and it simply reacts to what it sees, and you feel it until you get above the worn area.  The worn area is because the vast majority of your throttle position is in that lower range, even when cruising.

The only cure is replace the part.  It's a wear item.  Only you can decide if you're letting the dealer do it with the Yamaha diagnostic tool or you'll do it with your OBD.

Why two MAP sensors, I'm not sure, but they only sense vacuum.  The Tracer's are interconnected, so one is a backup?  Some bikes use one, some use two, and the second one has no hose, is vented to atmosphere.  The ECU is comparing actual atmospheric pressure to intake manifold pressure in that case, or in the Tracer case to each other it seems. 

Lots of bikes don't have a cylinder identification sensor, and it would seem a little odd they would try to do that with a MAP sensor.  More likely that cylinder identification is done some other way electronically or not at all if not needed.

 

Edited March 6 by RaYzerman

[piotrek]

1 minute ago, RaYzerman said:

Let's clarify a couple of things.... the only way technically to set the TPS angle is with the Yamaha diagnostic tool, and the range is 11-21.

I am also thinking the following... resistance values of the pot can be measured with the throttle plates closed before removal. I have done this to check the sensor, and the manual offers a range to check against.

The new sensor can be set to near-same value in advance of installation, then tweaked using the few degrees of adjustment available.  The 11-21 is a ECU translated value that's just easier to use.

I've never had to replace the TPS, but this sounds doable without any other tools other than an ohmmeter.... no?

[RaYzerman]

TPS's are difficult to diagnose, and just taking a resistance value isn't going to tell you much, nor anything about position.  They can test good and be bad, can test bad and be good..... been down this road many times on FJR's.  If you've eliminated other obvious things in your diagnosis, and still having issues, then replacing it does no harm.  It is a wear item with Yamahas it seems.

[Ride365]

I have a hard time believing that TPS differ much from brand to brand or model to model, they are just a rheostat correct? Wouldn't programming in the ECM/ECU be what makes the difference?

[RaYzerman]

If you check the picture I posted, it is a rheostat of sorts, but is reporting more than one resistance.  The ECU has set programming and gets info from a few sources before telling the throttle bodies what to do.

[piotrek]

22 hours ago, RaYzerman said:

just taking a resistance value isn't going to tell you much, nor anything about position.

Hmm... how can the readings not be directly related to position of the shaft? I tested this on my bike... and the values reletive to shaft position are repeatable. 🤔

12 hours ago, RaYzerman said:

it is a rheostat of sorts, but is reporting more than one resistance.

These are redundant tracks and wipers in the photos... both basically pots as shown in the manual. APS is built the same way.

[RaYzerman]

The readings are indeed directly related to the shaft position.  However, the resistance value itself is of little value... the important part is on a worn part, it will skip as you scroll up the throttle, meaning, most likely bad part.