Brakes, what's all the fuss about?

[checkereddemon]

I recently purchased my bike and read up on it voraciously both before and after the buy.  And one ting that I see pop up more tan I'd like is folks whining about how the brakes are mushy or inadequate somehow.
 
This is my 1st really new bike in *ages*, I've been buying and selling off many many bikes for the past 25 years.  However, the newest of the lot have been a string of '97-'99 Bandit 1200s and for a very brief while a 2004 GSXR 1000.  And I have to say that I find the FJ's brakes worlds better than what the Bandits had.  And I never ran into anything on those bikes fitted as they were.
 
I've only put 200 mi. on the bike so far, and I'm being judicious with my use of the brakes until they are fully bedded in and so that I've had time to build my muscle memory for the way they work.  And I think they work a treat.  I've run the bike up to 100 and then hauled in on the binders and the bike just squatted ever so slightly and decelerated very rapidly, IMHO.  FWIW, the bike is outfitted with Race Tech up front and out back.  The bike stops so nice and quickly with such nice control that I wonder just what you'd have to do to get the ABS to kick-in? 
 
Can these bikes do stoppies or will the ABS spoil that bit of tom foolery?  The Bandits and GSXR were able to do stoppies, but they did not have ABS or TCS.  I know you can defeat the ABS by pulling the green fuse.  But I just wish the factory would allow us to switch it off as a matter of convenience.
 
Anyway, what do you guys think about the brakes? Has anyone tried some HH pads or something like that to get more "bite"?  I actually prefer for my brakes to not come on with a lot of grab up front, I'd rather squeeze it more slowly, progressively, and firmly as I'm doing my braking...
 

[suncoaster]

The brakes are adequate.
I had the opportunity to try the '09 back to back with my R6, as I had both in the stable for a few months.
 
I noticed that I had to pull on the 09's brakes harder for the same effect on local downhill corners, but put that down to new brakes and the ABS. A quick recalibration of my expectations has me braking a bit earlier.
I used threshold braking a lot on the R6, and have not stoppied the 09 and am unlikely to.
 
I am not expecting to ride the 09 the same way as the R6, it's an entirely different thrill delivery system.
 
 

[wessie]

As ever, it depends what you are used to. I came from a Super Tenere which is a heavy beast to haul to a stop. The calipers, pads & ABS are the same system as the Super Tenere. Not sure about the master cylinder but probably from the same parts bin. I find the brakes very good and the only thing I have had to do is restart using the rear brake as the Super Tenere linked brake system did that for you anyway.
 
I don't plan to modify the brakes, except the next front pads will be Ferodo Platinum as I happen to have a set on the shelf that were destined for the Super Tenere.
 
My theory is that those who find the Tracer/FJ09 brakes weak are those coming from sports bikes and maybe not used to using the rear brake. Modify your technique not the system and all will be well. Judicious use of the rear brake will help as it reduces some of the weight transfer to the front end, helping the rather basic suspension to cope better.

[rodan]

My theory is that those who find the Tracer/FJ09 brakes weak are those coming from sports bikes and maybe not used to using the rear brake. Modify your technique not the system and all will be well. Judicious use of the rear brake will help as it reduces some of the weight transfer to the front end, helping the rather basic suspension to cope better.

This, plus coming from sportbikes, the FJ9 has a lot more suspension movement (dive) under hard braking.  I think folks may perceive that as a shortcoming in the brakes because the bike feels different, although it's stopping just as quickly.  Also the riding position will cause some folks to brake less aggressively because you are higher on the bike, and it feels more precarious when braking hard. 
All things you get used to after having some miles on the bike...
 

[oldguy44]

I switched to HH pads both front and rear.  I like them and always go for  as much bite as I can get.

[checkereddemon]

GotFZ1 offered:"Folks with unique problems and less experienced riders are sometimes over represented. Take it all in but apply a filter "
 
I agree. I think because I've been riding so long and have adapted to the true inadequacies of the brakes on 20 year old bikes, I find the brakes on the FJ to be plenty more than adequate. And my suspension does not dive very much, I've got a full Race Tech suspension all around and the bike is very stable even when I really grab the binders. Haven't gotten the ABS to kick in yet and that's a good thing, it wasn't needed.
 
I guess I just gotta get out there and hammer them a little bit more so I can have the experience of what it feels like. I admit I'm a bit hesitant, I've never jumped on my brakes really hard using an ABS equipped bike. It goes against everything I've ever been taught: do NOT grab the brakes so hard that you induce a wheel lockup - especially the front. Gonna be kinda spooky, methinks....
 
Best Wishes,

[redfjniner]

This is my fourth abs bike. First was a BMW R11. After riding for about a year, I was at a BMW rally, I asked an expert that I hadn't ever experienced the abs? as in a question and his reply was suprising in that he said, I was doing it right and you really shouldn't experience it if you brake correctly. That said, shortly after that I started to practice "maximum braking" and still didn't experience it unless I intentionally closed the lever. After getting the FJR I was doing a track day and came up on a bike really fast, first I applied the brakes, then harder, and again even harder, no abs and that was from 140 to 70 in about as fast as you can, 1-2 seconds. The lesson I leaned from that is, if you apply your brakes in a progressive manner you continue to load the front tire and the abs will not, normally, come into play. I found on the FJR that when the abs was activated that it would feel like the front tire was sliding/moving from side to side, about a half inch each way, but never loosing traction. Tire isn't going aroud as fast as the ground under it is moving by. If you practice enough you will eventually squeeze enough to get the abs engaged. Now regarding the FJ: Not as good as the FJR for feel or confidence front or rear. Rear is mushy, but I like it. Front is lacking feel, but works just fine. I feel no need to change. I put Speigler lines on my FJR and didn't feel any difference, and the aftermarket pads just made a mess out of the rims so I went back to the OEM pads and was much happier and never felt like the brakes were lacking. As you read the mags, you will notice that feel and performance do not always match up, but you have to go with what feels best as it will give you confidence in your riding. Practicing with what you have will also help you gain confidence in what you have, and in some cases you will do better. Therefore, practice with your brakes either way and get to know them. 70-35 is a good pratice, 70-0 after you have been doing it awhile, try not to fall over at the end. (eye up, horizon).
 
I'm just sitting here waiting for a call back from my mechanic to arrange my Valve check service(26K). Babbling.

[keithu]

I've ridden three bikes that had better brakes than the FJ, and they are all a lot older:
 
2000 Triumph TT600 - I owned this from new, put 35k miles on it. It had stainless lines from the factory and offered phenomenal feel.
 
1998 Triumph T-Bird Sport - I had this as a loaner for about 3000 miles. This was kind of a weird bike, they took the Thunderbird cruiser and gave it sportbike suspension and brakes (also had factory braided lines). These had to be the strongest brakes ever put on bike with wire spoke wheels and tubed tires.
 
1996 Kawasaki ZX-7R - Another loaner, I put 1000 miles on this bike. The ZX7 was kind of a tank but the 6-piston calipers were no joke.
 
Maybe newer sportbikes have stepped up the braking game, I don't know. I haven't ridden any of the modern ones.

[wessie]

I've ridden three bikes that had better brakes than the FJ, and they are all a lot older: 
2000 Triumph TT600 - I owned this from new, put 35k miles on it. It had stainless lines from the factory and offered phenomenal feel.
 
1998 Triumph T-Bird Sport - I had this as a loaner for about 3000 miles. This was kind of a weird bike, they took the Thunderbird cruiser and gave it sportbike suspension and brakes (also had factory braided lines). These had to be the strongest brakes ever put on bike with wire spoke wheels and tubed tires.
 
1996 Kawasaki ZX-7R - Another loaner, I put 1000 miles on this bike. The ZX7 was kind of a tank but the 6-piston calipers were no joke.
 
Maybe newer sportbikes have stepped up the braking game, I don't know. I haven't ridden any of the modern ones.

those 6 piston Tokico brakes on Kawasakis were fine when they worked. Prone to corrosion and seizure when savvy owners swapped them for 4 pot Nissins from a GSXR, Triumph or Honda CBR

[keithu]

those 6 piston Tokico brakes on Kawasakis were fine when they worked. Prone to corrosion and seizure when savvy owners swapped them for 4 pot Nissins from a GSXR, Triumph or Honda CBR

Huh, well it wasn't my bike so I didn't have to worry about it. The worst head shake I've ever encountered was a full-on tank slapper on that ZX-7R. I was on the throttle in a corner exit when I hit a bump and BAM the bars were ripped from my hands. Terrifying. There may have been something wrong with the bike. It was a press fleet unit that supposedly had already been crashed and repaired once before I sat buns on it. Other than that near-death experience it was great fun.

[cowboyrog]

Agree, little better than adequate.
I installed the Traxxion forks and Penske shock and yes this did control the front dive better and gave me a much better feel for the brakes.
Will write up a shock and front fork change and another thread soon.

[martyl]

I have to laugh about this as I ride from,"The Flintstones" my Ural Gear-Up with drum rear and sidecar, brembo on the front, to,"The Jetsons" my Fj09. In between, " Happy Days" with my 1976 Yamaha XS 650C, drum rear, disk front. The Ural you have to stomp on the rear brake as hard as you can and the front disk does all the work. The new all disk brake Urals have helped dramatically. The XS 650 is like the old flat track racers, heavier on the rear and then even out with both front and rear. I feel like I'm riding a rocket ship when I ride my FJ09. I have allot of respect for its capibilities and I ride accordingly. The Ural is like riding a tractor that can go 60. It's rough, there is no counter steering unless I'm flying the chair. You drive a Ural and ride it like a Jocky on a horse. You have to shift your weight in the turns and practice throttle and brake control.. Total blast! So I guess I'm a bad judgement of the braking and suspension of my FJ09 because for me compared to my other bikes my FJ09 is light years ahead. I'm as happy as can be with it.

[gabefzr6]

... judgement of the braking and suspension of my FJ09 because for me compared to my other bikes my FJ09 is light years ahead. I'm as happy as can be with it.

You've hit on the issue here.  It all depends on what you are used to.  My other bike has much more power and feel in the front brake than my FJ-09.  I have done a few upgrades to the FJ and have made improvements.  But under heavy braking, if I try to squeeze a bit more it gets to a point where the added pressure doesn't give any more braking force.  I will eventually try the 320 mm R1 rotors in my quest for more power.  

[adjuster]

Same as with the FZ1, and FZ9 that I've owned, all the master cylinder bores are the culprit to feel here.
 
Sure, stainless lines look cool, and they flex less, but really it's about the volume of fluid you move when you use the brakes, and the larger piston bore. and to some extent the radial design v/s the lever action of our brake system.
 
The radial mount puts the pivot point exactly in line with the bore center, while our stock ones put it off center, but it still moves the piston just fine.
 
The bore size is the King. It's there for feel, and brakes that work great if you just touch them. One or two finger brakes are easy, just put a larger bore master cylinder on, and get a radial one if you can for even more feel if that's what you want.
 
Guy down under named Kevtex has done this on his FZ09, and it was a nice setup. He's also upgraded his clutch to a Magura hydro unit too, but with a slave/cable end mounted up right by the stock clutch pivot arm. (And he made a longer pivot arm, but you can't go much more without it hitting the case.)
 
So, on using the ABS, this is my first ABS bike, and I'm very happy with it. Some KTM's I was looking at buying had ABS, and some off road folks complain about it, but I've never had any issues with my FJ09 so far. I know now that the rear brake is not supposed to be engaged, but I swear it's being put into use by the system. I don't touch the rear brake in most riding, yet it's showing wear on the rotor. And I've had the rear wheel do the ABS "judder" when I was stopping hard over new pavement, and hit a dusting of dirt and debris that both the front and rear wheels engaged the ABS, kept me from going down, and totally in control.
 
Same with the traction control. It's saved my bacon twice in wet weather, not that I would have fallen, I was trying to get the rear to light up slightly, but no dice, it just does not get out of line. Does not let me pull much of a wheelie either.'
 
With the FZ09, and no ABS/Traction control, It was wheelies, rear slides and stoppies no problem. Not that I ride like a hooligan... LOL But that FZ09 feels like a nible 250 under me, but has the power and basics to really have some fun riding it. Too bad it was not setup with the FJ09 suspension from the start, the spring rates are way too soft for me on the FZ, and firmer on the FJ, especially in the front, where brake dive is not such an issue as the FZ.
 
SO, I like the brakes. I like the ABS. I like the Traction control. I want factory cruise control with just the buttons and a re-flash of my ECU.
 
 

[xpress]

I have been able to do stoppies with mine, I wouldn't imagine the brakes to be that great if it couldn't do that