slippery when wet !

[howie333]

17 FJ-09;

last time went for local ride; roads mostly dry; temp was 61deg, and no freeze earlier that day or day before. I'm riding semi aggressively in the turns as I usually do here in eastern TN.; and suddenly the rear wheel slid out under me; had to fight from dropping the bike as it slid across roadway. I know my ABS was on, (not sure which mode), there was water in various places a it may have rained overnight, but no gravel or sand. My tires are the Dunlop Sportmax Roadsmarts and in good condition and  warmed up.  I've not had this happen to me in the life of these tires. I rode in c or ave. riding mode. Should I need to use B mode or change riding style if any water is suspect in my rides ? Thank God it wasn't my front tire !  

 

        Thanks;

       Please reply...

Edited January 30, 2021 by howie333
add a word

[Lone Wolf]

14 minutes ago, howie333 said:

...I know my ABS was on, (not sure which mode)

Were you braking when lost traction?  Accelerating? Gun it just before lost traction?

[betoney]

52 minutes ago, howie333 said:

last time went for local ride; roads mostly dry;

there was water in various places a it may have rained overnight

Should I need to use B mode or change riding style if any water is suspect in my rides ?

Yes, always ride for the current road conditions, not what they were last time you rode. 🤷‍♀️

[Salish900]

You were super lucky you didn't high side. When the rear slips out and not the front, it can keep slipping and you low side, or it can catch and send you flying like a freaking shot put into the air. 

I've never lost my rear end after riding countless thousands of hours in winter rains here in the rainy NW. I ride about average I'd say. Not like an 18 year old. Not like someone terrified. 

Besides watching your speed, you can also think about your lean angle. You can shift your weight on the bike to reduce the need for lean. A good trick in a pinch if you've got too much speed. Besides remembering your counter steering. 

If I were you, given how you may ride, I'd switch to a Road 5 or similar top of the line traction tire for the wet. Nothing like the sphincter factor of a near low or high side to make the money seem trivial. 

Super glad you were alright, and if you haven't, read one of the wonderful David Hough books on safe riding. Proficient Motorcycling is my favorite. Lots in there on wet riding because Dave is a local guy who commuted for years in our constantly wet conditions. 

[fddriver2]

I would be willing to bet that there was something you didn't see on the road.  I've been on RoadSmart 3's almost since they came out and have never had a sudden loss of grip for no reason. My opinion is that they are a excellent all around tire with good feedback.  YMMV. 

[Ride365]

Betting some diesel fuel or sand/grit was in that turn.......

[howie333]

20 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Were you braking when lost traction?  Accelerating? Gun it just before lost traction?

I was acceleration thru turn while counter steering and some lean. I'll have to go back and inspect that road condition. That bike does have great low end torque though that could pull out from under you. If not sure of road conditions; probably better to just ride in B mode and full traction control . Thanks for replies...

 

[betoney]

1 hour ago, howie333 said:

I was acceleration thru turn while counter steering and some lean. I'll have to go back and inspect that road condition. That bike does have great low end torque though that could pull out from under you. If not sure of road conditions; probably better to just ride in B mode and full traction control . Thanks for replies...

 

Forgive me if I am interpreting you wrong, but are you a new(er) rider?  This is my first bike with ABS, TCS and ride modes, I have never needed them before because I didn't have them, the ONLY setting you NEED turned on is 'wrist control'.  I grew up riding 2-strokes (still have a YZ250) in the woods at elevation, rocky terrain with miles of greasy, slick red clay and steep elevation changes.  You very quickly learn throttle control and SMOOTH throttle inputs, or you end up in a cast. 

One of the techniques I learned while riding on slick red clay is use MOMENTUM, you don't brake hard approaching the corner and then grab a hand full of throttle, you set your entry speed and use momentum (with minor SMOOTH throttle inputs) to get you through.  I use the same method today for street riding, I never whack the throttle open or chop it closed, I like to think of my throttle hand as a rheostat or amplifier volume knob (it still goes to 11 😄).  I rarely fully close the throttle so I don't have to open it as far if that makes sense?  Believe me, you can ride very fast and still have smooth, controlled throttle inputs.

Glad you made it out without a scratch.

 

[duhs10]

25 minutes ago, betoney said:

One of the techniques I learned while riding on slick red clay is use MOMENTUM, you don't brake hard approaching the corner and then grab a hand full of throttle, you set your entry speed and use momentum (with minor SMOOTH throttle inputs) to get you through.

I learned to ride/drive with the same concept but stated differently. To state it simply, basically there is a finite amount of traction and it is shared between whatever forces you are exerting on the contact patch, for example turning, braking, or accelerating.  If you (you as in a general term) use the majority of your traction on one of those, then the amount of traction left for the other two is reduced.

Seems obvious now that I've typed it out... not sure how much it adds to this conversation lol.

 

[nhchris]

23 hours ago, howie333 said:

17 FJ-09;

.... Should I need to use B mode or change riding style if any water is suspect in my rides ? Thank God it wasn't my front tire !  

You obviously have good mechanical skills since you saved the bike and yourself from a high side.  Good work!

You don't mention if you were braking, accelerating or leaning hard.  All of which impact traction.  I don't think you were trail braking since that would effect front wheel behavior.  So let's assume you were rear braking with either the brake itself or more likely using engine braking.

My FJ exhibits A LOT of engine brake force when the throttle is quickly closed. I'm not sure if this is a triple thing or not, but my heavier ST V4 did nor engine brake nearly as much as the FJ.

So, if you trail-braked into the corner semi-hot, leaned over and chopped the throttle shut, it is possible that you exceeded the traction available to the the rear tire.

Here's a short article and pie chart that describes the forces at work during cornering.

Finally, there is always a risk in cornering posed by the road ahead that you can't see. I often remember this in corner when I am overdriving my sight lines. Then I think, "Gee, I hope there ain't a school bus or trucked stopped around this bend!"  So far, been lucky. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by nhchris

[howie333]

5 hours ago, nhchris said:

You obviously have good mechanical skills since you saved the bike and yourself from a high side.  Good work!

You don't mention if you were braking, accelerating or leaning hard.  All of which impact traction.  I don't think you were trail braking since that would effect front wheel behavior.  So let's assume you were rear braking with either the brake itself or more likely using engine braking.

My FJ exhibits A LOT of engine brake force when the throttle is quickly closed. I'm not sure if this is a triple thing or not, but my heavier ST V4 did nor engine brake nearly as much as the FJ.

So, if you trail-braked into the corner semi-hot, leaned over and chopped the throttle shut, it is possible that you exceeded the traction available to the the rear tire.

Here's a short article and pie chart that describes the forces at work during cornering.

Finally, there is always a risk in cornering posed by the road ahead that you can't see. I often remember this in corner when I am overdriving my sight lines. Then I think, "Gee, I hope there ain't a school bus or trucked stopped around this bend!"  So far, been lucky. 

Thanks for replies; I didn't brake before or after incident and rarely do in turns , but accelerated, probably too hard, not gradual enough. I'm used to the power of my Ninja 650, and still not the added power of that triple motor of the FJ. I'll have to be more careful. It scared me enough to shorted that ride. I have been riding since 1973. This FJ has more low end power than I'm used to even after riding it over 3 years. At 5'9"; the bike is slightly taller than I'd like, but manageable. tougher w/ full tank.

       Thanks again ! Howie...

 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by howie333

[betoney]

Nobody explains grip better than Nick!

 

[PhotoAl]

WOW glad you saved it!  I do a lot of race photography and having the back step out leads to some really scary moment for those who save it.  Had a 2012 CBR600RR and then a 2014 ZX6R 636 ABS, relative to the Tracer GT they didn't have the low and midrange torque.  Between the ZX6R and the Tracer GT I had a BMW F800GT which didn't have TC but not so much power either.  It wasn't so good for my habits as I could get away with more.  I've approached the Tracer GT carefully after reading lots of posts about bad suspension and bad OEM tires.  For me it has been a well behaved bike but I always respect the road particularly wet road surfaces.  Have spun up the rear a couple of times on other bikes in the wet but fortunately was going mostly straight.  My BMW was probably closer to your Ninja 650 and there is a difference in the midrange power of the Tracer GT.  

I see you are from eastern TN.  A few years ago I was riding up to see my mom in Chattanooga and took Suck Creek Road (?) over Signal Mountain from Dunlap TN.  At the foot of the mountain there is a near 180 degree turn.  Was on my CBR600RR and the road was wet so I slowed way down (or so I thought) and was tiptoeing thru the turn as a group of Harleys were going the other direction.  LOL the back stepped out a little bit and all I could think was please don't drop this bike in front of those Harleys.  When I went back and looked at the GoPro video I was surprised at how much lean I did have when I thought I was going slow.  a couple of months later went back over that road in the dry - a fantastic road and had lots of fun.  

[Salish900]

8 hours ago, duhs10 said:

I learned to ride/drive with the same concept but stated differently. To state it simply, basically there is a finite amount of traction and it is shared between whatever forces you are exerting on the contact patch, for example turning, braking, or accelerating.  If you (you as in a general term) use the majority of your traction on one of those, then the amount of traction left for the other two is reduced.

Seems obvious now that I've typed it out... not sure how much it adds to this conversation lol.

 

This is what we teach in the MSF curriculum. We teach it as a credit card account. If you are using most of your credit to hold you in a curve, and then try to brake or accelerate, you exceed your credit limit. It helps new folks think about it. And it's true. 

[petshark]

I also have those tires on my new-to-me tracer and I do not trust them in the wet.

Opinions on this tire tend to be very polarized. They have a very long life and seem to be excellent value for commuters who don't push the bike or perhaps also for very experienced riders who don't mind their tire slipping and sliding on anything but perfect asphalt. This is not just my opinion, there's lots of reports to be found on the web and when I had my suspension set up last week, the tuner also said the same thing from experience; "take forever to warm up, too rigid, no grip, never again".

I don't want to take anything away from the other advice here as it all is relevant, but because nobody mentions the bad rep these tires have for some of us, I just wanted to throw that in there. I wasn't there but there is a good chance that you would not have slipped on tires like a pilot road or something.

Edited February 1, 2021 by petshark