Bad brakes

[petshark]

So I bought this young Tracer GT with 5000 miles on it. I love the bike but there's something wrong with the brakes. They have no bite and I can only stop the bike by using maximum grip pressure. I've cleaned the disks and that does not help.

What would you do next?

Is there a way to see if there is air in the system without bleeding the oil?
First get new pads?

I've never worked on brakes before but I know my way around tools and am willing to try and learn.

Thanks!

[mellow]

It's a pretty simple system... just bleed it.  Helps if you have a mighty vac or other type of bleeder but air would explain your issues.  Brakes are important so don't take shortcuts or even look for them.. just bleed it.

[roadrash83]

I would also think about replacing the pads. you never know what the previous owner sprayed on them. I'm very happy with the EBC HH sintered pads I put on.

[peteinpa]

I would start by removing the pads and inspecting them. Previous owner could have swapped them for organic pads for less bite, got something on them, never know with a used bike.

EBC sintered HH are the best pads.

Full fluid flush is next.

[betoney]

@petshark - As mentioned in previous posts, you can swap to a more abrasive brake pad with an HH rating, BUT you also have to clean the rotor surface, especially since you bought the bike used and don't know if the brake pad/ rotor surface is contaminated.

My method is to use a Scotch-Brite pad and isopropyl alcohol and THOROUGHLY scrub both sides of both rotors and then spray off any residue with brake cleaner. 

Before you install the new pads, also give the caliper pistons a good cleaning as well, I remove the caliper from the fork and extend the pistons.  I lightly coat the silver surface of the piston with brake fluid and scrub with an old toothbrush (brake fluid works great for removing that caked on black crud) and then again, spray off any residue with brake cleaner.

Brake fluid flushing/ bleeding can be done very easily (MANY Youtube videos available) I highly recommend some sort of check valve in your bleeder, either speed bleeders in each caliper or buy a bleeder with a check valve built in. 

Motion Pro Brake Bleeder | MotoSport

---

Motion Pro is dedicated to producing the most versatile, unique and...

Yamaha Brake Speed Bleeders FZ09 2014-2016

---

You are purchasing three (3) brake Speed Bleeders for your...

When you flush/ bleed the system, either use a second person or keep a watchful eye on the brake reservoir so you NEVER let it go empty which will pull air into the system.  For a flush, I usually run 3 reservoirs full through the system, flush to ALMOST empty then fill again, do that 3x.  It's probably overkill but I flush my fluid once a year during winter servicing, its cheap, simple and only takes a few minutes.  When I flush the fluid, I always do it from the right side, -furthest from the master cylinder-, so it pulls it through both calipers.

Finally, when you install the new pads, they must be bedded-in, follow the instructions on the package.

[Lone Wolf]

10 hours ago, petshark said:

there's something wrong with the brakes. They have no bite... First get new pads?

 

9 hours ago, roadrash83 said:

...I'm very happy with the EBC HH sintered pads I put on.

 

9 hours ago, peteinpa said:

EBC sintered HH are the best pads.

I noticed a huge improvement with EBC HH sintered pads after bedding them in (several gradual stops from @ 45 mph in a row, to heat up and evenly transfer material to rotors in a smooth controlled manner.)

BUT after a year or so they became glazed. Just like your issue, no bite, took gorilla grip to stop quickly. I bled the brakes twice, no improvement for my particular situation.

Stoltec Moto did a post somewhere about EBC pads having problem with glazing, and all they sell are Galfer HH pads. He thinks they are less prone to glazing when used for hard braking on the track. Stock pads can also become glazed. 

My EBC's had lots of pad remaining, so I took them out, inspected for any brake fluid or fork oil (rub with rag or paper towel, normal pads will have dust but not anything that will stain the rag with petroleum looking smear).

I got some 120 grit sandpaper and a very flat block of wood and removed the glaze from my pads. I quickly saw the glazed areas start to appear Matte finish within a few strokes against the sandpaper. If you cut one sheet of sandpaper into 4 pieces, you will use one piece for each pad then use clean sandpaper on the next one. If your pads are not contaminated, only dry dust will come off, nothing oily.

Avoid breathing the dust, clean off the pads and reinstall. The rotors should still have some pad residue (even after cleaning) so they will essentially already be bedded in and you should notice a change right away if the pads were glazed.

And, like Betony said, bleed the brakes. Your bike may still have the original fluid as you bought a low miles used bike. There are some great tips on this next video re: how to prevent your master cylinder from running out of fluid when you bleed the brakes.

BTW Aaron is an amazing stunt rider. I have seen him do a stoppie that went forever. He knows brakes.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Lone Wolf

[koth442]

Start with a bleed. 

[betoney]

2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

And, like Betony said, bleed the brakes. Your bike may still have the original fluid as you bought a low miles used bike. There are some great tips on this next video re: how to prevent your master cylinder from running out of fluid when you bleed the brakes.

BTW Aaron is an amazing stunt rider. I have seen him do a stoppie that went forever. He knows brakes.

That is a great video, very easy to understand,  it should make sense even to someone who has never bled brakes before.

[Lone Wolf]

Watch Aaron do a stoppie on a stock FZ-07 with no radial master cylinder and calipers worse than Tracer.  Set to start at 3:27

Edited December 26, 2020 by Lone Wolf

[PhotoAl]

defiantly sounds like something is not right.  I bought a new 2020 Tracer 900GT in South Dakota - 1,400 miles from home on a long trip (that's another interesting story all by itself).  Rode in on my BMW F800GT and took a short test ride on the new Tracer before moving stuff from F800GT over to the tracer - full sidecars plus a large duffle on the rear seat as well as a 12" tool bag which had everything from the tank bag off the old bike.  First thing I noticed about the Tracer was the front brake - anemic!  Rear was fine, figured it was a new bike and probably had some residue from sitting on the showroom floor that got on the rotors or pads.  It did get better but still not good bite are stopping power IMO.  Rode around in SD and then rode the 1,400 miles home.  Had 2,000 miles on it when I got it home and since then have put another 1,000 miles on it.  Front brakes are better but do not have the "bite" that my BMW did.  Interestingly the rear brake is just the opposite - vey strong and plenty of "bite".  Just the opposite of the brakes on the BMW!  I have a set of EBC HH pads to put on the font but haven't gotten around to it.  Maybe this week!  Last week had the bike out and did some hard stops from 60 or 70 down to maybe 20 mph on a deserted road.  The brakes seemed ok then.  The first 2,000 miles on the bike were mostly highway with not a lot of stops for that mileage particularly on the 1,400 mile ride home.  I was also being fairly gently with it for the first 1,000 miles as well. The last 1,000 miles have been more normal riding and the brakes have improved during that time.  Have to wonder if tire shine or something put on the brake rotor is responsible or just the way it is.  At this point don't think the OEM pads are horrible just don't have the initial bite I'm used to.  Prior to the BMW had a Kawasaki ZX6R 636 and a Honda CBR 600RR before that.  The supersports both had wonderful brakes and that is my benchmark for great brakes.  

[knyte]

On 12/26/2020 at 9:16 AM, betoney said:

keep a watchful eye on the brake reservoir so you NEVER let it go empty

Is this the only concern with an ABS system?

[betoney]

31 minutes ago, knyte said:

Is this the only concern with an ABS system?

That’s a concern with ANY brake system, car, bike, truck, regular or ABS, if you suck air in, you now have to get it back out. 

[PhotoAl]

I've had that problem with cars.  When the kids were younger would get one of them to help me bleed the brakes.  Sometimes they would just let go of the brake pedal which would create enough suction to get an air bubble in the brake line.  Since then I always release the brake pedal/lever slowly.  Now I usually use a hand pumped vacuum bleeder - works great.  

[2WHLOZK]

+1 vote for EBC pad upgrade.  The OEM Tracer pads are crap, barely adequate IMHO.  

If you only ever do one mod to your Tracer, upgrade the pads.  

I'll be installing EBC pads on my MX-5 too.  Can't wait!

[petshark]

Thank you all for the info!

I have been educating myself on bleeding brakes and feel confident to try it.

Unfortunately I cannot order the L and LL (lenght) speed bleeders where I live. I'll get the motion pro brake bleeder with the check valve instead. Cheaper as well and no worries about speed bleeders seizing after some time like I read in some amazon reviews. I have also ordered dot 4 oil from Brembo which was on sale and will buy the EBC HH pads.

It might take some time before I get to it but I'll keep you posted on what I expect to be a huge improvement.

Edited December 28, 2020 by petshark
update